Is God not sovereign in a Christan's life after we are saved?

[Silverhair]

My own words do no such thing.

I will type this very slowly so maybe you can comprehend…

I DO NOT. BELIEVE. A PERSON. IS. SAVED. WITHOUT FAITH!!!!!

Don’t gaslight like a troll

peace to you

Your words: (conviction, drawing, and regeneration) which frees the person’s will from the enslavement of sin and enables them to comprehend and embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ with God given faith.

Regeneration = born again/saved, as in saved from above. So by your own words you have the person born again then they believe. Your order regeneration, understand the gospel, God gives faith.

Bible order: hear the gospel, believe the gospel, saved by God.
Just read Rom 10:9-10 or Eph 1:13 it makes it clear that what you are saying is wrong, you just do not seem to understand that.

If the person is given faith, as you say, after they are saved then they are saved without faith.

 

[canadyjd]

…
That is precisely the core of Calvinism when you think it through. A person's mind is completely controlled by God in regard to the things of God (as all Calvinists must at least admit) which things are the subject of our discussions.
It is simply cognitively dissonant to your mind that men should be automatons, thankfully, because of the Holy Ghost in you and the scriptures, but yes, in Calvinism, all men are, in fact, less than automatons, technically.

Technically, not really complete control.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

.
Regeneration = born again/saved, as in saved from above. So by your own words you have the person born again then they believe. Your order regeneration, understand the gospel, God gives faith…..

Regeneration does not equal salvation but is part of the work of Holy Spirit to bring the elect to salvation. I have explained several times.

Salvation equals a right relationship with God where the person is no longer under condemnation but has become a child of God, indwelt by Holy Spirit. That right relationship is a supernatural work of God Holy Spirit that culminates with faith in Jesus.. I.e “salvation”

peace to you

 

[George Antonios]

Technically, not really complete control.

peace to you

Then he would not be, technically, completely sooooooovereign; as most Calvinists would agree.

 

[Silverhair]

Technically, not really complete control.

peace to you

What do you mean by "Technically, not really complete control." Does God only control 75 % or 95% or 3% what? Or do you mean that man has a free will?

 

[Silverhair]

Regeneration does not equal salvation but is part of the work of Holy Spirit to bring the elect to salvation. I have explained several times.

Salvation equals a right relationship with God where the person is no longer under condemnation but has become a child of God, indwelt by Holy Spirit. That right relationship is a supernatural work of God Holy Spirit that culminates with faith in Jesus.. I.e “salvation”

peace to you

I am just going by your own words.
So once again you have the person saved before they believe/have faith. Regeneration = rebirth, born again, born from above, saved.

This is the one of two times that regeneration is used in the bible. Here we see Paul writing of the renewing of a persons soul. The other is Christ Jesus speaking of the renewing of creation. Mat_19:28

The washing of regeneration G3824 (paliggenesía) refers to the spiritual rebirth of the individual soul. The Complete Word Study Dictionary

Thayer Definition: G3824
1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

 

[George Antonios]

I am just going by your own words.
So once again you have the person saved before they believe/have faith. Regeneration = rebirth, born again, born from above, saved.

This is the one of two times that regeneration is used in the bible. Here we see Paul writing of the renewing of a persons soul. The other is Christ Jesus speaking of the renewing of creation. Mat_19:28

The washing of regeneration G3824 (paliggenesía) refers to the spiritual rebirth of the individual soul. The Complete Word Study Dictionary

Thayer Definition: G3824
1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

He is right that regeneration is only an aspect (though integral part) of New Testament salvation.
But you are right in pointing out that in Calvinist Eastern Philosophy, man is born again before he technically gets saved by faith.

 

[Silverhair]

He is right that regeneration is only an aspect (though integral part) of New Testament salvation.
But you are right in pointing out that in Calvinist Eastern Philosophy, man is born again before he technically gets saved by faith.

When canadyjd says "Regeneration does not equal salvation but is part of the work of Holy Spirit to bring the elect to salvation." It is not a part of salvation, it is salvation. Regeneration is the result of faith in Christ Jesus, that is being born again/saved.

The washing of regeneration G3824 (paliggenesía) refers to the spiritual rebirth of the individual soul. The Complete Word Study Dictionary

Regeneration is renewal which God grants us because we believe. So regeneration is the end result of hearing the gospel, believing the gospel.

 

[AustinC]

@Silverhair wrote:
Regeneration...is not a part of salvation, it is salvation.

Regeneration is the result of faith in Christ Jesus, that is being born again/saved.

The washing of regeneration G3824 (paliggenesía) refers to the spiritual rebirth of the individual soul. The Complete Word Study Dictionary

Regeneration is renewal which God grants us because we believe. So regeneration is the end result of hearing the gospel, believing the gospel.

Notice:
1) Faith causes God to regenerate (rebirth) a human.
2) Belief causes God to grant renewal (rebirth) to a human.

This means that humans cause God to save them because of humans exercising their own faith.

Yet, Silverhair's assertion is completely contrary to Ephesians 2:1-9.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Anyone who makes humans the cause which effects God to regenerate, is lifting up humans as greater than God and making God less than man. Such a teaching does not come from God and all Christianity should recognize its origin is from a serpent in the garden.

 

[atpollard]

The reality, when plumbed, is that Calvinists must logically end up believing that men are robots in all things (when not talking out of both sides of their mouth).

Can you choose to believe that the sky is green and the grass is blue?

If yes, then go ahead and present your case so you can convince me that the sky is green and the grass is blue (so I can share this truth with you). If no, then why not? Have you somehow lost your free will?

In the same way, your human nature (natural man in ‘bible-speak’) makes it equally impossible for you to believe that the grass is blue or that the Gospel is not ‘foolishness’. However, unlike the color of the grass, our nature is WRONG when it comes to ‘spiritual truths’. Thus God MUST DRAW or men will not come.

No ‘illogic’ or ‘talking out both sides of the mouth’ required.
Just accepting the biblical reality of the inability of natural man to accept spiritual truth without the ‘first cause’ of God as TRUTH.

 

[George Antonios]

Can you choose to believe that the sky is green and the grass is blue?

If yes, then go ahead and present your case so you can convince me that the sky is green and the grass is blue (so I can share this truth with you). If no, then why not? Have you somehow lost your free will?

In the same way, your human nature (natural man in ‘bible-speak’) makes it equally impossible for you to believe that the grass is blue or that the Gospel is not ‘foolishness’. However, unlike the color of the grass, our nature is WRONG when it comes to ‘spiritual truths’. Thus God MUST DRAW or men will not come.

No ‘illogic’ or ‘talking out both sides of the mouth’ required.
Just accepting the biblical reality of the inability of natural man to accept spiritual truth without the ‘first cause’ of God as TRUTH.

Right, so man is an automaton when it comes to salvation or lack thereof. That's what I said.

 

[Dave G]

Is God not sovereign after we are saved?

Yes.

Does he choose to minimize His sovereignty in our lives once we are born again?

No.

Since I do not believe in the reformed soteriology has God failed in His sovereignty to lead me to right and proper doctrine?

To me, "Reformed Soteriology" is a term used to describe the historical teaching of a systematic theology derived from pieces of the Scripture...
and not an understanding of a person's salvation ( and God's work of grace ) expressed from the totality of His word ( as taught over time ) via the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life.

According to what He says in many places ( Isaiah 54:13, Jeremiah 31:34, John 6:45, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 Thessalonians 4:9, Hebrews 8:11, 1 John 2:20-27, etc ), the Lord never fails to instruct His children in His ways and to give them a true understanding of His word the more that they study it in their lifetimes.
In fact, He commands that they do ( 1 Peter 2:2, 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

It's part of their growth to know all that the Lord has done for them in providing an everlasting relationship with Him through His Son,
and the things in His word were written for their learning ( Romans 15:4 ) in order that they might take comfort in who and what He has made them to be...

The sons and daughters of the living God, who will walk and talk with Him forever.


So my friend, if you have truly believed on Him from the heart ( Romans 10:8-10 ), then study...
and He will show you everything that there is to know about how and why He saved any of us.

 

[Dave G]

If God is only sovereign when He alone acts to impart a regenerated soul for salvation, then why is God still sovereign when He doesn't act alone in our lives to believe in correct doctrine?

He is "sovereign" in both cases, as it is He that instructs His children through His word and through His Spirit.
He gives them preachers and teachers ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ) who then direct them to what He has to say in the Scriptures.

But one thing that He never does is use them to impart a man's private "denominational" understanding of His word to them...
They arrive at it all "by themselves", because He has opened their understanding ( Luke 24:45 ), and given to them His Spirit, that they might know the things freely given to them by God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).

Doesn't He want everyone to have correct doctrine? Does he not want to His children to believe correctly about Him?

Absolutely.

As always,
May God bless you richly... and with the knowledge that only comes from above.

 

[George Antonios]

Yes.

No.

To me, "Reformed Soteriology" is a term used to describe the historical teaching of a systematic theology derived from pieces of the Scripture...
and not an understanding of a person's salvation ( and God's work of grace ) expressed from the totality of His word ( as taught over time ) via the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life.

According to what He says in many places ( Isaiah 54:13, Jeremiah 31:34, John 6:45, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 Thessalonians 4:9, Hebrews 8:11, 1 John 2:20-27, etc ), the Lord never fails to instruct His children in His ways and to give them a true understanding of His word the more that they study it in their lifetimes.
In fact, He commands that they do ( 1 Peter 2:2, 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

It's part of their growth to know all that the Lord has done for them in providing an everlasting relationship with Him through His Son,
and the things in His word were written for their learning ( Romans 15:4 ) in order that they might take comfort in who and what He has made them to be...

The sons and daughters of the living God, who will walk and talk with Him forever.


So my friend, if you have truly believed on Him from the heart ( Romans 10:8-10 ), then study...
and He will show you everything that there is to know about how and why He saved any of us.

Ah, ever the dispenser of generalities that don't intersect the point unless pressed into a corner.
Just tell @Revmitchell what you really suspect, @Dave G

 

[CalTech]

When we speak of "free will" we are speaking of a lost man innate ability to believe the gospel.

When you veer away the discussion concerning free will to other matters you are obfuscating the issue.

The reality, when plumbed, is that Calvinists must logically end up believing that men are robots in all things (when not talking out of both sides of their mouth).

But for now, when it comes to believing the gospel, you teach that men are automatons.
That is not a misrepresentation at all.

Greetings,

I disagree concerning being "automatons", I will have to look that up, but I think you are meaning "robots".
Here is the definition of "automatons":
automaton
ô-tŏm′ə-tən, -tŏn″
noun

1. A self-operating machine or mechanism, especially a robot.
2. One that behaves or responds in a mechanical way.
3. That which is self-moving, or has the power of spontaneous movement, but is not conscious.

I think robots are more who follow those who simply say "the sinner's prayer" and you are saved. Do as I say, and follow me in my prayer, is more robotic then being Born-Again by and through the convicting Power of the Holy Spirit, who is like the wind:

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The "repeating the sinner's prayer" after a person did not work in my life, and other's lives also.

So we will have to agree to disagree for now........
The Lord bless you.....
In His Love.....

 

[CalTech]

He is "sovereign" in both cases, as it is He that instructs His children through His word and through His Spirit.
He gives them preachers and teachers ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ) who then direct them to what He has to say in the Scriptures.

But one thing that He never does is use them to impart a man's private "denominational" understanding of His word to them...
They arrive at it all "by themselves", because He has opened their understanding ( Luke 24:45 ), and given to them His Spirit, that they might know the things freely given to them by God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).

Absolutely.

As always,
May God bless you richly... and with the knowledge that only comes from above.

Greetings,

AMEN!

 

[George Antonios]

Greetings,

I disagree concerning being "automatons", I will have to look that up, but I think you are meaning "robots".
Here is the definition of "automatons":
automaton
ô-tŏm′ə-tən, -tŏn″
noun

1. A self-operating machine or mechanism, especially a robot.
2. One that behaves or responds in a mechanical way.
3. That which is self-moving, or has the power of spontaneous movement, but is not conscious.

I think robots are more who follow those who simply say "the sinner's prayer" and you are saved. Do as I say, and follow me in my prayer, is more robotic then being Born-Again by and through the convicting Power of the Holy Spirit, who is like the wind:

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The "repeating the sinner's prayer" after a person did not work in my life, and other's lives also.

So we will have to agree to disagree for now........
The Lord bless you.....
In His Love.....

I don't think you truly understand what the Calvinist position is brother.
That's probably why the conversation has shifted to an unrelated discussion.

 

[Silverhair]

Notice:
1) Faith causes God to regenerate (rebirth) a human.
2) Belief causes God to grant renewal (rebirth) to a human.

This means that humans cause God to save them because of humans exercising their own faith.

Yet, Silverhair's assertion is completely contrary to Ephesians 2:1-9.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Anyone who makes humans the cause which effects God to regenerate, is lifting up humans as greater than God and making God less than man. Such a teaching does not come from God and all Christianity should recognize its origin is from a serpent in the garden.

But is completely in line with
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
and
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Scripture is clear we have to believe before we are saved, you just keep denying this.

 

[atpollard]

Right, so man is an automaton when it comes to salvation or lack thereof. That's what I said.

You said much more than that. Had you restricted your “automaton” comments to the narrow area of ‘coming to Christ’ … I would have offered no comment except “I agree” (as does scripture).

• [John 3:17-21 NASB95] 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
  
• [John 6:44 NASB] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
  
• [Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB95] And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[George Antonios]

You said much more than that. Had you restricted your “automaton” comments to the narrow area of ‘coming to Christ’ … I would have offered no comment except “I agree” (as does scripture).

Did you read:

A person's mind is completely controlled by God in regard to the things of God (as all Calvinists must at least admit) which things are the subject of our discussions.

When we speak of "free will" we are speaking of a lost man innate ability to believe the gospel.

When you veer away the discussion concerning free will to other matters you are obfuscating the issue.

The reality, when plumbed, is that Calvinists must logically end up believing that men are robots in all things (when not talking out of both sides of their mouth).

But for now, when it comes to believing the gospel, you teach that men are automatons.
That is not a misrepresentation at all.

?