Is God Patient With His Decree?

[canadyjd]

Romans 9:22-24 - What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Longsuffering - having or showing patience in spite of troubles, especially those caused by other people.

If the assertion is that God has decreed all things that come to pass, including the existence of vessels of wrath, how does it logically make sense that He is longsuffering with them?

God decreed the Hebrew people would suffer in slavery for 400 years because, as He told Abraham, the sin of the Amorites was not yet complete.

When He decreed Joseph that he sold into slavery by His brothers it was stated they meant it for evil but God meant it for good.

So, the answer to your question is found in the passage you quoted. It is logical for God to be longsuffering towards vessels of wrath because it displays the riches of His glory to vessels of mercy which He has also decreed.

Hope that helps

Peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

@Charlie24

As THE PROPHET, Christ came only to ______________.

Cephas was the apostle to the ___________ .

When a person "perishes," because he didn't repent, what does that mean in the NT Greek?

You're hung up on the word in the eternal sense of perishing (along with 99.99% of evangelicals). Educate yourself. Do a word search and decide for yourself, is it used more often in the temporal or the eternal sense? By far, the temporal.

2 Pet 3:9 is in the same vein as:

Revelation Chapter 18

4​	And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5​	for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

 

[canadyjd]

When a person "perishes," because he didn't repent, what does that mean in the NT Greek?

A person perishes because they have rejected God and remain in the sin.

Many (most?) live and die never hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ and the call to repent.

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24

As THE PROPHET, Christ came only to ______________.

Cephas was the apostle to the ___________ .



You're hung up on the word in the eternal sense of perishing (along with 99.99% of evangelicals). Educate yourself. Do a word search and decide for yourself, is it used more often in the temporal or the eternal sense? By far, the temporal.

2 Pet 3:9 is in the same vein as:

Revelation Chapter 18

4​	And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5​	for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

I'm hung up on it because the word "repentance" is involved, and it has eternal consequences.

But I don't have to explain that! You're a very intelligent person, you know what it means.

 

[Baptizo]

It is logical for God to be longsuffering towards vessels of wrath because it displays the riches of His glory to vessels of mercy which He has also decreed.

I still don’t see the logic in it. If He has already decreed the events in time, there’s no reason for Him to be patient since He already knows in advance what’s going to happen.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm hung up on it because the word "repentance" is involved, and it has eternal consequences.

No, it doesn't always have eternal consequences.

1 Now there were some present at that very season who told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish. Lu 13

What do you imagine Pilate did there Charlie? You know he didn't 'mingle their blood' himself, he sent soldiers to do the deed. 'In like manner' they (the Jews of 'that generation') were to perish by the sword if they did not repent.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, think ye that they were offenders above all the men that dwell in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lu 13

Josephus actually records this event that happened in the 'berg' of Siloam. Roman soldiers, again by Pilate's orders, disguised themselves and mingled with the crowd and fell upon them with clubs and beat them to death to quell an uprising of the Galileans over Pilate misappropriating temple funds to extend an aqueduct from the spring at Siloam. They (the Jews of 'that generation') were all to 'likewise' perish if they did not repent.

In the same vein as:

And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:23

 

[Charlie24]

No, it doesn't always have eternal consequences.

1 Now there were some present at that very season who told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.

What do you imagine Pilate did there Charlie? You know he didn't 'mingle their blood' himself, he sent soldiers to do the deed. 'In like manner' they (the Jews of 'that generation') were to perish by the sword if they did not repent.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, think ye that they were offenders above all the men that dwell in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Josephus actually records this event that happened in the 'berg' of Siloam. Roman soldiers, again by Pilate's orders, disguised themselves and mingled with the crowd and fell upon them with clubs and beat them to death to quell an uprising of the Galileans over Pilate misappropriating temple funds to extend an aqueduct from the spring at Siloam. They (the Jews of 'that generation') were all to 'likewise' perish if they did not repent.

In the same vein as:

And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:23

It's impossible for repentance not to have eternal consequences. The kind Peter was speaking of anyway.

Eternal life if you do, Eternal death if you don't.

 

[kyredneck]

It's impossible for repentance not to have eternal consequences. The kind Peter was speaking of anyway.

Eternal life if you do, Eternal death if you don't.

Hell, hell, hell. Hell on the brain.

Those Hebrew of the Exodus generation that believed not 'the gospel'; in hell?

 

[Charlie24]

Hell, hell, hell. Hell on the brain.

Those Hebrew of the Exodus generation that believed not 'the gospel'; in hell?

I don't want to argue, K. It's plain to see what it means.

And yes, if they didn't enter into God's rest as the Scripture said, where did they go?

I hope you don't believe in that Catholic purgatory.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 9:22-24 - What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Longsuffering - having or showing patience in spite of troubles, especially those caused by other people.

If the assertion is that God has decreed all things that come to pass, including the existence of vessels of wrath, how does it logically make sense that He is longsuffering with them?

I have heard it said and seen it in various writings that God was patient so that they would have the time to repent, but if God has decreed all things then why the long suffering as you asked?

 

[JesusFan]

I still don’t see the logic in it. If He has already decreed the events in time, there’s no reason for Him to be patient since He already knows in advance what’s going to happen.

That would mean that since God already knows all that will happen, why not just have the Second Coming happen right now then?

 

[kyredneck]

I don't want to argue, K. It's plain to see what it means.

Then prove it to me from scripture, i.e., failure to change one's mind always sends one to hell.

if they didn't enter into God's rest as the Scripture said, where did they go?

Lol, they wandered in the Wilderness of Sin.

God's rest, i.e., the Land of Milk and Honey, is the kingdom of God, here, now, in the present, not only in eternity. A 'foretaste of glory divine'.

 

[Baptizo]

I have heard it said and seen it in various writings that God was patient so that they would have the time to repent, but if God has decreed all things then why the long suffering as you asked?

Right. It doesn’t make sense that he’d be longsuffering with what is set in stone.

 

[Baptizo]

That would mean that since God already knows all that will happen, why not just have the Second Coming happen right now then?

I’m not sure that’s an equal comparison. Longsuffering means having or showing patience in spite of troubles, especially those caused by other people. God has already decided the time of the second coming and didn’t need input from anyone else.

 

[canadyjd]

I still don’t see the logic in it. If He has already decreed the events in time, there’s no reason for Him to be patient since He already knows in advance what’s going to happen.

Ok, I understand what you are saying now.

Scholars see this as “anthropological” (sp?) condescension with references to God.

It means God has revealed Himself by comparisons to human beings so we can understand Him.

He is said to have eyes and hands and feet. He is Father. Jesus is Son. He is said to become angry, grieve, have joy and be longsuffering.

All of it is true, as for as the comparison goes, but God is unlike any other entity in the universe. We can never truly comprehend completely.

So, scripture says God is longsuffering towards vessels of wrath in order to display the riches of His glory to His vessels of mercy.

In the very same passage, scripture tells us God has created both (decreed) for this very purpose. I see that as being completely logical, as God is attempting to communicate a divine truth in a manner we are capable of understanding. He is longsuffering (patient) and merciful.

Peace to you

 

[Baptizo]

Scholars see this as “anthropological” (sp?) condescension with references to God.

It means God has revealed Himself by comparisons to human beings so we can understand Him.

I see too many instances where the Calvinist will arbitrarily say that God’s response to humans is only anthropomorphic language and should not be taken literally. It is an inconsistency that gives free rein for someone to say that anything is anthropological, including Predestination. Where do we draw the line?

This is just me, but I am more comfortable believing that God is able communicate with us in straightforward manner. If the Holy Spirit says that He is longsuffering, I think He really means that He is longsuffering and if He didn’t really mean it that way, He would have said it differently.

That’s my take. I hope it made sense.

 

[Zaatar71]

Romans 9:22-24 - What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Longsuffering - having or showing patience in spite of troubles, especially those caused by other people.

If the assertion is that God has decreed all things that come to pass, including the existence of vessels of wrath, how does it logically make sense that He is longsuffering with them?

Could it be because he does not destroy them instantly, as they sin?

 

[Zaatar71]

Good point! He hasn't decreed all things to come to pass regarding man.

What part of what man does is not ordained to come to pass? What do you mean by this? I am not sure what you mean by this, can you help me understand, maybe give an example or two?

This takes us back to Isaiah 1:18-20, with God's longsuffering toward man to be saved.

Is the longsuffering of God dealing with men to be saved, or with God not destroying sinful man until all the sheep get saved?

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

If Sovereign Grace is true in its points, then this Scripture wouldn't be.

I am not sure if you conclusion is necessary here

 

[Zaatar71]

There is no dispute that He has the right to make known the riches of His glory.

If the vessels of mercy are a part of His decree, how is it that He is patient with them?

He does not destroy them instantly, but allows time for men to repent?

 

[Zaatar71]

And the hinge in that passage would revolve around just who is the intended 'All?"

Good point