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Is God Patient With His Decree?

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Ben1445

Active Member
canadyjd said:
The passage doesn’t say “in Him from the foundation of the world”, it says chosen from the foundation of the world.

Peace to you
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Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
To claim faith as a work is counter the teaching in Ephesians.
Salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works. No one is believing their way to heaven outside of the work of Christ by the grace of God. God reached out to man, this is grace. Man accepts the grace offered by faith.
God seeks. Man answers. Some answer correctly and come God’s way. Others in their own pride will to come their own way. Without Christ they are lost.
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I never claimed faith is a work.

I have consistently stated faith is the response we have to God’s work upon us.

Peace to you
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
God seeks. Man answers. Some answer correctly and come God’s way. Others in their own pride will to come their own way. Without Christ they are lost.
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Are you saying the difference between those that accept and those that reject is one has “pride” and the other doesn’t?

Peace to you
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
The glory is God’s no matter what. God offers salvation to all. Those who reject Him will bow the knee anyway and be judged. The warnings in scripture are for all. If not God could have save a lot of time on the BB by revealing Himself to us as he did to Paul.
But Jesus came and was lifted up to draw all men to Himself. All men are drawn. Some always resist.
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God offered salvation to all by keeping the OT Law. No one was able to keep it according to Paul. He also offered salvation by revealing Himself in creation. Again, Paul explains in Romans all rejected that revelation and are condemned without excuse.

We do not begin on a neutral playing field, waiting to accept or reject. Everyone already has rejected and stands condemned.

John writes in repeating themes. You must understand what came prior to John 3:16 to understand the context.

In John 1, the theme of being “born by the will of God” is introduced. The children of God are not born by the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, by (the will of) God.

In John 3, John again speaks of being “born” by the will of God, this time focusing on the role of God Holy Spirit… “The wind (Spirit: the Greek word is the same for both) blows where it wills….. so is everyone born of the Spirit.

The drawing of all men cannot mean every person without exception. You have already stated the gospel is necessary for salvation. It is very likely that billions of people have lived and died never hearing the gospel.

How can they be offered salvation if they never hear the gospel?

The “draw all men” means to draw without distinction, I.e. Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, slave and free.

John then repeats the theme of being “drawn” when Jesus declares a person must be drawn to come to the Father.

He further explains when He states His sheep hear His voice, He calls them by name and they follow Him. I’ve explained the passage at least twice in this thread, maybe three times.

He also says to some they do not believe because they are not His sheep. He doesn’t say they are not His sheep because they don’t believe, but rather the REASON they don’t believe is because they are not Hus sheep.

Peace to you
 
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Ben1445

Active Member
canadyjd said:
God offered salvation to all by keeping the OT Law. No one was able to keep it. He also offered salvation by revealing

John writes in repeating themes. You must understand what came prior to John 3:16 to understand the context.

In John 1, the theme of being “born by the will of God” is introduced. The children of God are not born by the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, by (the will of) God.
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I understand that Jesus was lifted up and that His theme when He came was the redemption of mankind. So when Jesus said and John recorded, “I will draw all men,” I understand Jesus meant all men. Judgment is just when men are punished for their own choices. It is unjust when a person is punished for someone else’s choice.
The responsibility and the judgment comes on the sinner who finds himself at the judgment seat without the blood of Christ.
Salvation was never offered through the Law. Hebrews reports that God found fault with it. Not that it was sinful. Just that it was insufficient. The blood of goats and calves can never atone for sin.
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
I understand that Jesus was lifted up and that His theme when He came was the redemption of mankind. So when Jesus said and John recorded, “I will draw all men,” I understand Jesus meant all men. Judgment is just when men are punished for their own choices. It is unjust when a person is punished for someone else’s choice.
The responsibility and the judgment comes on the sinner who finds himself at the judgment seat without the blood of Christ.
Salvation was never offered through the Law. Hebrews reports that God found fault with it. Not that it was sinful. Just that it was insufficient. The blood of goats and calves can never atone for sin.
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Every person on the planet is already condemned for their sins. God, in His mercy and according to His will alone, has chosen specific individuals for salvation and by His power, He brings them into a right relationship with Himself, which is “salvation”.

Peace to you
 
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Ben1445

Active Member
canadyjd said:
Every person on the planet is already condemned for their sins. God, in His mercy and according to His will alone, has chosen specific individuals for salvation and by His power, He brings them into a right relationship with Himself, which is “salvation”.

Peace to you
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We disagree.
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
We disagree.
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Which part?

Romans 1 clearly states all are condemned based on the rejection of God found in creation.

Can we agree on that?

Can we agree the gospel is necessary for salvation?

Can we agree billions of people have lived and died never hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Peace to you
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Aaron said:
That doesn't make any sense. You're either convinced something is true or you're not. It's quite out of your control.
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The is the most illogical comment I have seen in quite a while.

Do you think that the person does not have a mind with which to think or do you think they are just a robot that does as they are programed to do?
 
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Ben1445

Active Member
Samuel Morris
This is a YouTube video about an hour long.
His story is the testimony of a man who responded to God having revealed Himself in creation.
I didn’t watch the entire video. But this is the person I am referring to.
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
Samuel Morris
This is a YouTube video about an hour long.
His story is the testimony of a man who responded to God having revealed Himself in creation.
I didn’t watch the entire video. But this is the person I am referring to.
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Well, do you believe the man was saved before hearing the gospel of Christ?

Peace to you
 
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Ben1445

Active Member
canadyjd said:
Well, do you believe the man was saved before hearing the gospel of Christ?

Peace to you
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No. I believe that having been drawn through creation, God made Himself known to a person who responded.
The place where I usually find that I disagree is that I believe all people are able to respond the same way. God’s knowledge of what will happen is the determining factor in who is predetermined. And the longsuffering of God is evidenced by his offering to people who continue to resist Him in spite of His effort to draw all men to Himself
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
No…
The place where I usually find that I disagree is that I believe all people are able to respond the same way.
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Well, I agree that all people do, in fact, respond in the same way. First, all respond the same way by rejecting God. Second, all whom God choses for salvation and then works upon them, will respond the same way. Faith unto salvation.
Ben1445 said:
God’s knowledge of what will happen is the determining factor in who is predetermined….
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I disagree. You seem to be saying God chooses people for salvation based on His knowledge of how they will respond to the gospel.

IMO, scripture teaches us God choses people according to His own will, before the foundation of the world, and then actively causes that salvation at His appointed time.

Let me ask you this. I have heard it stated the doctrines of grace deny a genuine offer of salvation to those that are not elect. Do you believe that?

Based on your belief stated above, is it a genuine offer of salvation to preach the gospel to all, even though God has already determined with His knowledge who will reject and who will accept?

Peace to you
 
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