Is God Patient With His Decree?

[Baptizo]

Never claimed you did. Glad you don’t agree with SH

Peace to you

I’m not trying to pick sides with anybody. If you’re a Calvinist, then you have to deal with the problem of evil and so far the Calvinist has not presented satisfactory answers to that issue. But that’s a topic to get deeper into on another thread.

 

[canadyjd]

I’m not trying to pick sides with anybody. If you’re a Calvinist, then you have to deal with the problem of evil and so far the Calvinist has not presented satisfactory answers to that issue. But that’s a topic to get deeper into on another thread.

I’ve never studied Calvin in depth. I consider my self reformed.

Dealing with the problem of evil is something everyone that studies seriously must do.

Peace to you

 

[Reynolds]

Only if you miss read most of scripture.

You keep saying that, but you have failed to deal with any of the passage I posted.

 

[Aaron]

Yes.
Those are the generally accepted options for the same choice.

Let's talk about the choice to believe.

Were you convinced the things you heard were true (actual belief)?

What convinced you?

 

[Aaron]

Do you think that the person does not have a mind with which to think or do you think they are just a robot that does as they are programed to do?

Neither.

We have minds, we are not automatons, but neither are we gods.

I'm going to presume you're convinced of the truth that the moon travels around the earth. By all appearances, the sun goes around the earth too, but you're not convinced that's true. You're convinced, beyond what your own eyes are telling you, that the earth moves around the sun.

Can you choose to think otherwise?

Of course not.

So I'm asking you...what convinced you of the truth of the Gospel? Surely you're not saying you decided it was true.

 

[Ben1445]

Well, I agree that all people do, in fact, respond in the same way. First, all respond the same way by rejecting God. Second, all whom God choses for salvation and then works upon them, will respond the same way. Faith unto salvation.

But this is not what I said. So we don’t agree.

I disagree. You seem to be saying God chooses people for salvation based on His knowledge of how they will respond to the gospel.

IMO, scripture teaches us God choses people according to His own will, before the foundation of the world, and then actively causes that salvation at His appointed time.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

Romans 8 is talking about the future expectation of the redeemed. No one yet on this earth (except JW’s) are perfect on this earth. We will are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
To put a ‘yes but they were chosen to be chosen is circular.

Let me ask you this. I have heard it stated the doctrines of grace deny a genuine offer of salvation to those that are not elect. Do you believe that?

To use King Arther as an example, when the sword was in the stone, there was an illusion for a time that anyone could be king. When no one could remove it the stone it was clear that the offer was not made to everyone.

What I am hearing most DoG people say is that salvation is only available to the elect. What I read in Scripture says that those who are chosen are “in Him,” and the things that follow the choosing of the elect are not salvation rather God’s goodness to those who have received him. And since faith is not a work, when a person responds of his own free will, God places Him in the category of the elect before the foundation of the world because of His foreknowledge.

Based on your belief stated above, is it a genuine offer of salvation to preach the gospel to all, even though God has already determined with His knowledge who will reject and who will accept?

Peace to you

I don’t find it genuine to offer salvation to those who are unable to accept it. That is the main reason I believe it is available to all. God commanded that we offer it to all.

Knowing something doesn’t make it happen. I have foreknowledge that if I offer my children ice cream at any time, they will accept it. I have decided nothing by offering. I have changed none of their minds by knowing what they will choose.
God is great enough to real offer a real choice and know what the outcome will be. God is able to give man a free will and still know what man will do without choosing for man and funneling certain people.
This in no way interferes with God’s providence. Nebuchadnezzar will attest to that. God can do whatever he wants. He wants us to offer salvation to everyone. And a God who cannot lie is not going to offer a half truth.

 

[Ben1445]

Let's talk about the choice to believe.

Were you convinced the things you heard were true (actual belief)?

What convinced you?

And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

They must not have truly believed there was a supper.

Tell me what could have been said to convince them.

 

[Aaron]

Yes it has. Glad that you agree.

I, for one, commend you for your consistency.

 

[Charlie24]

Neither.

We have minds, we are not automatons, but neither are we gods.

I'm going to presume you're convinced of the truth that the moon travels around the earth. By all appearances, the sun goes around the earth too, but you're not convinced that's true. You're convinced, beyond what your own eyes are telling you, that the earth moves around the sun.

Can you choose to think otherwise?

Of course not.

So I'm asking you...what convinced you of the truth of the Gospel? Surely you're not saying you decided it was true.

That's a very good question, Aaron, I thought I'd butt in and throw in my 2 cents worth.

When Christ asked the disciples who do you say that I am, Peter said, you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Then Christ said, flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven.

The truth of the Gospel is revealed to us by God through the hearing of His Word.

The disciples heard the Words of Christ and it was revealed to them who He really was, and they believed.

 

[Silverhair]

You keep saying that, but you have failed to deal with any of the passage I posted.

When you post a verse # with no explanation of what you think it means then what would you like me to comment on?

 

[Silverhair]

Neither.

We have minds, we are not automatons, but neither are we gods.

I'm going to presume you're convinced of the truth that the moon travels around the earth. By all appearances, the sun goes around the earth too, but you're not convinced that's true. You're convinced, beyond what your own eyes are telling you, that the earth moves around the sun.

Can you choose to think otherwise?

Of course not.

So I'm asking you...what convinced you of the truth of the Gospel? Surely you're not saying you decided it was true.

Actually I would say just that. That is just what we do in any situation.

FYI for many years man thought the sun did travel around the earth but it was only through more knowledge that they came to understand that the earth traveled around the sun.

But look at the order, the scientists had to gather the information, then they had to believe the information they had gathered was trustworthy.

The reason that you believe the earth travels around the sun is because you gathered the knowledge, in school, you believed the the information given because you trusted the one giving it to you.

This is the same thing any thinking person would do when coming to trust in Christ Jesus.

We hear the gospel message and believe it to be true and trust that the one spoken of can and will do what we were told He would do.

 

[Aaron]

Then Christ said, flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven.

That's what I'm going for.

Certainly that revelation is a revelation given by grace. You weren't asked, "Would you like this revelation?" It was imparted by God at His will, not ours. And once revealed, it can't be unrevealed.

It's simply irrestible.

At some point, we are all Calvinists.



Obviously not all receive this revelation. Sodom was allowed to die in her sins. God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.

So at some point, we all believe in Limited Atonement. We only disagree on the limiter.

 

[Silverhair]

I, for one, commend you for your consistency.

I try to be.

 

[Aaron]

Actually I would say just that. That is just what we do in any situation.

FYI for many years man thought the sun did travel around the earth but it was only through more knowledge that they came to understand that the earth traveled around the sun.

But look at the order, the scientists had to gather the information, then they had to believe the information they had gathered was trustworthy.

The reason that you believe the earth travels around the sun is because you gathered the knowledge, in school, you believed the the information given because you trusted the one giving it to you.

This is the same thing any thinking person would do when coming to trust in Christ Jesus.

We hear the gospel message and believe it to be true and trust that the one spoken of can and will do what we were told He would do.

Like I said, at least you're consistent.

But is that what the Scriptures tell us that faith is?

 

[Silverhair]

That's what I'm going for.

Certainly that revelation is a revelation given by grace. You weren't asked, "Would you like this revelation?" It was imparted by God at His will, not ours. And once revealed, it can't be unrevealed.

It's simply irrestible.

At some point, we are all Calvinists.



Obviously not all receive this revelation. Sodom was allowed to die in her sins. God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.

So at some point, we all believe in Limited Atonement. We are only disagreed on the limiter.

God has provided various means through which we can know Him. Creation, conviction of sin, even the gospel message so man really has no excuse for saying He does not exist. But being given the information/revelation does not mean that it is received as we well know.

So actually is resistible.

At some point we all become bible believers.

The limiter is man. God desires all to come to repentance but will not force anyone to trust in Him.

As my pastor use to say: We as Christians look to God and say "Thy will be done and God looks at man and says Thy will be done"

 

[Silverhair]

Like I said, at least you're consistent.

But is that what the Scriptures tell us that faith is?

Yes.

 

[Charlie24]

That's what I'm going for.

Certainly that revelation is a revelation given by grace. You weren't asked, "Would you like this revelation?" It was imparted by God at His will, not ours. And once revealed, it can't be unrevealed.

It's simply irrestible.

At some point, we are all Calvinists.



Obviously not all receive this revelation. Sodom was allowed to die in her sins. God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.

So at some point, we all believe in Limited Atonement. We only disagree on the limiter.

God's grace is NOT irresistible. If it were the Scripture wouldn't say, "today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts."

This is a clear request not to resist God.

I'm a 1 point Calvinist, I can't go any further that totally depraved.

 

[canadyjd]

…
Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren……
……God places Him in the category of the elect before the foundation of the world because of His foreknowledge…..

The use of “foreknow” in this passage does not mean God knew something about these folks. Please look at the context. “Whom He did foreknow” means He knew them in a relationship. It does not say “whom He foresaw would believe”. The context does not support your interpretation.

It means God knows these people in a relationship…. And based on that relationship, God predestined them.

Peace to you

 

[Ben1445]

The use of “foreknow” in this passage does not mean God knew something about these folks. Please look at the context. “Whom He did foreknow” means He knew them in a relationship. It does not say “whom He foresaw would believe”. The context does not support your interpretation.

It means God knows these people in a relationship…. And based on that relationship, God predestined them.

Peace to you

προγινώσκω
STRONG’S NUMBER:g4267
Dictionary Definitiong4267. προγινώσκω proginōskō; from 4253 and 1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee: — foreknow (ordain), know (before).
AV (5) - foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1;
to have knowledge before hand

 

[Reynolds]

When you post a verse # with no explanation of what you think it means then what would you like me to comment on

Take the list I posted. Find free will in any of them. If you think they support anything other than Calvinism, explain.