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Is God the Author of Sin?

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gb93433

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freeatlast said:
However your statement, from your logic, that because God created everything, then evil is included in His creation is flawed.
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It is not about our logic but about who God is. The problem is that man's theology of God is flawed not scripture.

In the case of God the same is true. God created and it was very good. No evil in the creation. Man then took what God created and damaged it although not by accident. So God did not create evil. Evil is the result of a bad choice on man's part. God had nothing to do with it.
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Evil is not always man's choice. Before man sinned evil was present. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart of did Pharaoh harden his heart? Scripture teaches both. Who would we be to think other than what scripture teaches. Too many systematic theologies try to synthesize scripture. It is much like mixing mashed potatoes and corn. The result is that you do not have corn or mashed potatoes but an adulterated mess.

You cannot have good without evil. We would not know good unless there was evil.

Man does not create evil. It is already present and he must make choices. Evil's origin is not in man.
 
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freeatlast

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gb93433 said:
It is not about our logic but about who God is. The problem is that man's theology of God is flawed not scripture. [/FONT]

Evil is not always man's choice. Before man sinned evil was present. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart of did Pharaoh harden his heart? Scripture teaches both. Who would we be to think other than what scripture teaches. Too many systematic theologies try to synthesize scripture. It is much like mixing mashed potatoes and corn. The result is that you do not have corn or mashed potatoes but an adulterated mess.

You cannot have good without evil. We would not know good unless there was evil.

Man does not create evil. It is already present and he must make choices. Evil's origin is not in man.
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You are correct that evil did not have its origin with man. It was with satan. I was not trying to give an exact account of the beginning of sin, but to show that man is responsible not God. However because this was mans dominion he brought it into play.

Your statement "The problem is that man's theology of God is flawed not scripture" right on. and you are using bad theology.

You asked who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Pharaoh did and God returned the favor by sealing it. God gave him the oppertunity to believe and pharaoh hardened his own heart first.

You say;
"
You cannot have good without evil. We would not know good unless there was evil."

I hope you do not teach your children that because that is not true, but it is more bad theology. God was before evil and He is good. I assume that you do not want your children to get drunk to prove that staying sober is good. Without evil I will know only good. I do not need to know evil to know good. You seem to think that we need to be able to experience evil to know truth. However I know that putting my head under an 18 wheeler is not good even though i have never experienced it. man is not an idiot. well not a total idiot. There are holy angles that have never experienced sin and yet they know what holiness is. Your logic is flawed.
 
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freeatlast

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There is one thing about this. I sure hope that all you preachers that have been holding to the idea that God authors sin go back to your congregations and admit that you were wrong since it has clearly been shown to you here in these discussions. They need to know the truth! :laugh:
 
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gb93433

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freeatlast said:
There is one thing about this. I sure hope that all you preachers that have been holding to the idea that God authors sin go back to your congregations and admit that you were wrong since it has clearly been shown to you here in these discussions. They need to know the truth!
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Every man has two natures. Explain where those come from.
 
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freeatlast

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gb93433 said:
Every man has two natures. Explain where those come from.
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[SIZE=+0]I would like to see that from scripture. Men have one nature at a time. The lost a sin nature, the saved a nature born from above. We become new creations at salvation, old things pass away and all things become new. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Now we do have to put off the old man, but that is not the old nature. Our nature has to be changed and we cannot do that. Nature is from within the old man is from the outside. Sin nature=sinner, saved= new creation. The old man is the remnant left with the flesh. The command to put the old man off is to change our actions to fit our new nature.[/SIZE]
The nature of the lost is to sin (thus sin nature) the nature of the saved is to live unto God (thus nature from above).
 
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quantumfaith

Active Member
gb93433 said:
It is not about our logic but about who God is. The problem is that man's theology of God is flawed not scripture. [/FONT]

Evil is not always man's choice. Before man sinned evil was present. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart of did Pharaoh harden his heart? Scripture teaches both. Who would we be to think other than what scripture teaches. Too many systematic theologies try to synthesize scripture. It is much like mixing mashed potatoes and corn. The result is that you do not have corn or mashed potatoes but an adulterated mess.

You cannot have good without evil. We would not know good unless there was evil.

Man does not create evil. It is already present and he must make choices. Evil's origin is not in man.
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1. A VERY true statement, which by the way, is in mathematics "commutative", applies to any and all "man engineered" theologies.
2. True, but it was not yet present in humanity.
3. Excellent, very true that God hardened Pharaoh and Pharaoh also hardened his own heart, unfortunately for the debate, it is a tautology, in that it does not advance the ball for either cals or non-cals.
4. Not possible to have good without evil? This is one of those things that sounds nice, and I have seen many make reference to it in things I have read, but so far I have not seen (for me) adequate support why this is "must be so" principle of God's creation.
5. Man does not "create" anything in reality. He is confined to making "choices" within the context and parameters in which he finds himself.

To deny that God should/could have known that "evil" would be an inevitable reality in creation is to deny God's omscience. On the other side of the coin, to claim that God "created" sin and its consequences as a method for him to be glorified assaults the spiritual senses of many.

Ultimately it may once again arrive at the debate of whether one believes there is a distinction between God's foreknowledge and the concept of predestination.
 
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gb93433

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freeatlast said:
[SIZE=+0]I would like to see that from scripture. Men have one nature at a time. The lost a sin nature, the saved a nature born from above. We become new creations at salvation, old things pass away and all things become new. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Now we do have to put off the old man, but that is not the old nature. Our nature has to be changed and we cannot do that. Nature is from within the old man is from the outside. Sin nature=sinner, saved= new creation. The old man is the remnant left with the flesh. The command to put the old man off is to change our actions to fit our new nature.[/SIZE]
The nature of the lost is to sin (thus sin nature) the nature of the saved is to live unto God (thus nature from above).
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Are you saying that you have never sinned since becoming a follower of Jesus? If so then you are better than any of the apostles.
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

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Quantum

Did you know my friend that this statement of your...

To deny that God should/could have known that "evil" would be an inevitable reality in creation is to deny God's omscience. On the other side of the coin, to claim that God "created" sin and its consequences as a method for him to be glorified assaults the spiritual senses of many.

... also included John Calvin? He admitted that it was repulsive to reason.... I believe he called it (decretum horrible)
 
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quantumfaith

Active Member
gb93433 said:
Before I existed, evil existed. How did it get to me at any time?
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Did it "get" to us in Adam, or was it simply the choice being presented to Adam?Seems to me that "evil and good" may be digital and consequential to anything created (anything sentient). Just "musing" out loud. :)
 
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quantumfaith

Active Member
Earth said:
Quantum

Did you know my friend that this statement of your...

To deny that God should/could have known that "evil" would be an inevitable reality in creation is to deny God's omscience. On the other side of the coin, to claim that God "created" sin and its consequences as a method for him to be glorified assaults the spiritual senses of many.

... also included John Calvin? He admitted that it was repulsive to reason.... I believe he called it (decretum horrible)
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I was not "aware" of that particular statement, however, I have "happened" upon many statements of Mr. Calvin that I would gladly nod in agreement with. It is very simply the "system" of which his conclusions directed him to make with which I humbly and certainly do not find myself in agreement with.
 
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