Is God's Sovereign really absolute control of everything?

It's not funny, it's doctrine and Ray... God gave us Pastors and TEACHERS... to listen to in humility.. why because God has gifted them in abundance in learning and skill.. it's pride that one doesn't allow themselves to learn from them....

It's also not funny that when you challenge people to back up their comments (saying Calvinism is a Catholic view) and they can't ( I Luv Light) they resort to a false piety and humility deflecting the problem of thier lying...
Just the the mormons, JW's, Catholics on this issue (from which you side on). So please, don't lie. If you can't prove that The calvinist view was Catholic (which you can't) don't talk about it, your in sin if you do.

 

Yep, God gave us teachers, Pastors and it is not true for anyone to say they have not been influenced by others in their doctrine. All of us on this board would be going to Mass this Sunday had it not been for Martin Luther. So all of us who are Protestants in one way or the other have been influenced either directly or indirectly by Luther. All of Western Christianity (Roman Catholic and Protestant alike including Armianians) has been influenced by Augustine.

I have heard it said that the Protestant Reformation was a battle over Augustine's View of Salvation vs. Augustine's View of the Church. God gives the Church teachers and it is not just me and my Bible for we need teachers to help us understand Holy Scripture.

 

Can't show me huh I Luv Light...This IS a discussion on God's sovereingty... Luther's, Calvin's, Augustine's, Edwards, Owens view of SCRIPTURE based on SCRIPTURE on the sovereignty of God VS The Catholics, Greek philosophers, Jehohvah's Witnesses, Mormon teachings of Man and his Authority as equal to Scripture on the Sovereignty of man...

It's easy to understand what side your on IF you know history.. The reformers (God is Sovereign and Has total control of salvation) or your on the side of Catholics (who based their views strictly on Aristitilian philosophy) that man has free will and man is not totaly depraved.. just admit it.. that's the only choice you have.. avoiding the issure by saying you just believe what the Bible say's is just a childish denial of what you don't want to admit.

 

God's sovereignty is a FACT! It needs no speculation or dissection on our part!

 

Still can't admit it! It's amazing.... Can't admit that your on the Catholic side...
All you have to do is lay down that ol' pride and see that your theology is hand and hand with the boys in Rome. There's plenty of room on the reformed, God is ALL sovereign and man is totaly deprived bandwagan!!

 

If you take time to research church history you will find that Augustine studied Plato and Aristotle and refined, he thought, Christian theology via these non-Christian philosophers. Their impersonal view of God is derived from these secular greats. Thus, the determinism of Augustine/Calvinism. Calvin’s refining and systematizing of Augustine, of course, comes from Roman Catholicism. Newly converted Catholics in the Reformation era (1517 and on; get it?!

I will agree with you that we who believe in free will are much closer to present day Catholicism than you remaining, die hard Calvinists. At least their prieshood has evolved to a more Biblical view than five point Calvinists.

Your lack of real insight allows you to identify us with cults like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. We like you, believe in the deity of Christ, His precious atonement and all of the other orthodox doctrines. Yes, we are depraved as sinners but sinners also are created in the image of God, which some Calvinists deny. [James 3:9] All would agree that Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, and He never stopped creating human beings after His image. Note: Noah after the Flood. [Genesis 9:6] This is why we as sinners can respond to the call of God to salvation in and through Christ.

God is sovereign and He shows this best when He let the door to everlasting life, wide open to all human beings. [John 1:29 & I John 2:2 & Revelation 22:17 and more verses if you need them for study]

 

Yes we are created in the image of God. BUT that does not mean that we have the ability to choose anything good with our understanding or spirit.
Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Man in his mind and WILL hates God and spits in His face and will do so EVERY time unless the power of God gives him a new heart. Again I told you that you can not uses imperatives for idicatives and yet you still show your grammatical ineptitude. Rev 22 is to the CHURCH. I can give you more lessons in grammer if you wish also...

 

Where in Augustine's confessions did he say anything that Plato AND Aristotle founded ANYTHING in His theology? As I stated before quote him (Augustine) please? ... Plato and Aristotle where opposed to each other... Plato the Universals and the later the particulars. I'll be amused to see you reconcile this Ray. It seems that you are taking things from uneducated self proclaimed teachers i.e. Dave Hunt for alot of your misinformed understandings of Church History.

 

rc,

You said

Interesting. Now we have Calvinistic people telling us that God predestined the Fall, Original Sin, so that humankind can spit in the face of the Lord each time.

No, it is rather that God ordained the free agency of humankind and the first couple made the cognitive decision to disobey the Lord, causing the Fall. And since then sinners remain separated from their Creator/Savior. And yet this is all under His Divine control and those who turn against the Son will end up at the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11] Your alleged non-elect will be without excuse, because Jesus has made provision for every sinner. [I John 2:2]

I wonder if some people who Calvinists have taught might have turned away from Jesus, because of your theorizing something that is clearly not from the Spirit of the Lord.

 

God is sovereign in all things as in the control of the entire universe with its thousands of galaxies, as well as in sending the lost to Hell and the saved into Heaven. He is also bringing history to His desired conclusion in His own era of time. All of the future events as in Armageddon and the Second Coming will take place at His desired time. This is the kind of sovereignty that I believe God is totally involved in as people move through time toward eternity.

 

1 Corinthians 2:14 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

God did create free agency.. you are correct..With ADAM !

Posse Peccare / Posse NON Peaccare

But after the fall... THAT'S what's important becasue that is the state we're in now...
Posse Peccare / NON Posse NON Peccare

You keep on argueing from the substance of the arguement but you completly jump over the formal arguement... You will find VERY FEW Paulinian's that will say man does not choose. I believe that man always chooses and always has and always will... The problem is the formal issue.. WHAT WILL HE CHOOSE? For man to have a Biblical free will, he MUST and WILL choose what he DESIRES the MOST at that time. This is the definition of free will correct? You believe man chooses God because he finds a desire for Him and chooses Christ. This is the substancial arguement. The problem is you can't find a verse that says man HAS that desire! (FREE WILL)

Over and over though it is Biblical to state that man is at anminty with God. He is (man's will) opposed to Him. He is spiritually discerned and never seeks after Him. Thus BEFORE a man is ABLE to choose (freely I might add) he has to have the DESIRE to answer the command of the gospel.

 

Are you implying that Catholics are not CHRISTIAN?

 

Nice try to make another rabbit trail Wes... since that's all Arminians can do... still haven't answered it... still waiting.

 

I've lost track of what you are trying to prove, could you restate it for all of us again?

 

reread the post... God's sovereignty is in all things (cause and effect) including salvation. Paulinians get their thought from Romans mainly and the RC church gets if from Pelagian which got it from Aristotle. So simply stating your foundation of hermeneutics is Catholic based... which is ... Aristotilian

 

I rather believe since I have never studied Pelagian, or aristotle, that My beliefs have no basis in either of them! Never even read either of their writings except whatever extracts may get posted on this BBS. My beliefs are based on what I have read, and that is the bible, and I use regularly at least 9 different versions, finding much consistancy between them.

So as a scholar you may desire to put lables on me that are simply not true of me, but they are consistant with YOUR perspective of truth. So enjoy your little demagoguery of assigning labels, that may be all the pleasure you get out of life!

As for God's sovereignty? THAT'S A FACT, JACK!

 

So I guess when I debate a JW and I bring Him to his history and show him WHY and WHERE he gets his understanding from John 1.1 , If he says I don't know those Guys and I get what I've found from reading my Bible then He's correct? Disregard the influences that molded that person? If you don't know history your bound to repeat it... and the spirit of Pelagius is back! The scary part is now it will bleed into open theism then into dualism... hmmm How do I know that? . . .