Is Grace Irresistible?

[Iconoclast]

[QUOTE="revmwc,

Very clear God has called us, elected us and given us the Spiritual Gifts we need because He knew everything about us beforehand. While the decision to trust Him is resistible, He knows who will answer the call and who will resist and therefore election and our office for Him are Predestined.[/QUOTE]

No.....He has determined and ordained a multitude to have eternal life. It is not because He knows what we would do, because we all rebelled against Him.

 

[tyndale1946]

[QUOTE="revmwc,

Very clear God has called us, elected us and given us the Spiritual Gifts we need because He knew everything about us beforehand. While the decision to trust Him is resistible, He knows who will answer the call and who will resist and therefore election and our office for Him are Predestined.

No.....He has determined and ordained a multitude to have eternal life. It is not because He knows what we would do, because we all rebelled against Him.[/QUOTE]

I agree... Before he laid the foundation of the world he made an Election... According to his own will purpose and grace!... He knows who will answer the call and who will resist and therefore election and our office for Him are Predestined?... No that is not election... That is selection... Man based not God based!... Brother Glen[/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

He came close to speaking truth, then at the end....they always twist it to make man in control rather than God.
I am thinking this is rebellion.They agree up and down the line, then when push comes to shove....they turn away....CautiousCautiousCautious

 

[kyredneck]

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Ro 3

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:22

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3:9

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8

Please tell us which translation you are quoting from, for each verse. Thank you. ....

Never mind, I see it is the KJV. No other popular translation uses the phrasing "the faith of Jesus Christ" in Galatians 2 or "the faith of God" in Romans 3.

KJV follows the literal rendering. Young's Literal Translation:

2 looking to the author and perfecter of faith -- Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him -- did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down; Heb 12 YLT

3 for what, if certain were faithless? shall their faithlessness the faithfulness of god make useless?
22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, Ro 3 YLT

16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.`
20 with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me; Gal 2 YLT

22 but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. Gal 3 YLT

9 not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith, Phil 3 YLT

12 Here is endurance of the saints: here are those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.` Rev 14 YLT

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, Eph 2 YLT

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Congratulations, you found the exceptions. BTW, you forgot Mary.

Brother InTheLight,

There are no "exceptions" as everyone is born again in the same manner, "8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8).

 

[Alcott]

Is Grace Irresistible?

Grace Kelly might have been.

 

[Rippon]

Groan...

 

[tyndale1946]

Is Grace Irresistible?

Grace Kelly might have been.

I never thought I would have to use the dumb button but this answer is the exception!... Brother Glen

 

[kyredneck]

..."8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8).

YLT again:

.....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow,....thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3:7,8

 

[revmwc]

No.....He has determined and ordained a multitude to have eternal life. It is not because He knows what we would do, because we all rebelled against Him.

Again Jeremiah 1:5 We see The Lord tell Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

God knew him what did he know about Jeremiah?


The Hebrew word yada which means according to "Strongs" to perceive and see find out and discern, God knew Jeremiah he had perception of him before he was formed in the womb. We see Calvin's commentary on this passage, "Jeremiah then was not actually sanctified in the womb, but set apart according to God’s predestination and hidden purpose; that is, God chose him then to be a Prophet. It may be asked, whether he was not chosen before the creation of the world? To this it may be readily answered, that he was indeed foreknown by God before the world was made;


John Gill "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,.... Not merely by his omniscience, so he knows all men before their conception and birth; but with such a knowledge as had special love and affection joined with it; in which sense the Lord knows them that are his, as he does not others, and predestinates them unto eternal life; and which is not only before their formation in the womb, but before the foundation of the world, even from all eternity. The forming of the human foetus is God's act, and a curious piece of workmanship it is"


Ironside states this "All was foreseen long, long before its actual occurrence; everything was provided for. Satan, sin, and their attendant evils, have in no wise interfered with His purpose, "who worketh all things according to the counsel of His own will." (Ephesians 1:11)"


God knew Jeremiah, knew all about him before he was formed in the womb. Just as He knew you and me before we were formed and because of his knowing us beforehand that is by His foreknowledge, His Omniscience, He knew everything and nothing about our lives surprises Him, nothing about our choices Surprises Him, for He knew exactly what was and for that matter He knows exactly what is going to happen before it occurred or occurs. That is His Omnsceince and His knowing us beforehand. He already knows the outcome of every situation before it occurs. Calvin states it, Gill too as well as Ironside. Strongs show's it as the perception of God, "I perceived thee before I formed thee in the Womb". Now what does the word foreknow mean=to have previous knowledge of, know beforehand especially by paranormal [merriam webster states paranormal] ([revmwc] Spiritual) means or revelation. The word is very clear God knew everything about Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb. To me that indicates an Omniscient (all knowing) God of which I serve, knew ALL about Jeremiah as well as us and based on that foreknowledge He did predestinate us to be conformed to the image of His dear son, He did predestinated Jeremiah to be a prophet to the nation based upon knowing ALL about Jeremiah beforehand, all by His Sovereignty.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.`

A few thoughts on the 'faith of Christ.' It seems to be being suggested that this refers to the personal faith of our Lord which saves us.
It is the question of a subjective or an objective genitive. Consider:
'The fear of God.' Is it God who fears? Or is it our fear towards, or in respect of, God? 'The love of money.' Is it the money that loves? Or is it our love towards, or in respect of, money?
So 'Faith of Christ.' is it Christ who has the faith? Or is it our faith towards or in respect of Christ? The context decides.

Consider Galatians 2:16, quoted above by Kyredneck. The 'faith of Christ' is being contrasted with the 'works of the law.' Is it the law that works? Or is it our work in respect of the law? Surely the latter. It seems most unlikely to me that Paul would be mixing objective and subjective genitives twice in the same sentence. Therefore just as the 'works of the law' refer to our work in respect of the law, so 'faith of Christ' refers to our faith in respect of Christ, and the modern translations are correct to render it as 'faith in Christ.'

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Consider Galatians 2:16, quoted above by Kyredneck. The 'faith of Christ' is being contrasted with the 'works of the law.' Is it the law that works? Or is it our work in respect of the law? Surely the latter. It seems most unlikely to me that Paul would be mixing objective and subjective genitives twice in the same sentence. Therefore just as the 'works of the law' refer to our work in respect of the law, so 'faith of Christ' refers to our faith in respect od Christ, and the modern translations are correct to render it as 'faith in Christ.'

Brother Martin,

If you are correct, what do you think was the distinguishing factor that made the translators of the KJV render it "faith in Christ" in such verses as Colossians 1:4, "4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints," but "faith of Christ" in other verses throughout the Bible such as Romans 3:22, "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference"?

 

[TCassidy]

Consider Galatians 2:16, quoted above by Kyredneck. The 'faith of Christ' is being contrasted with the 'works of the law.' Is it the law that works? Or is it our work in respect of the law? Surely the latter. It seems most unlikely to me that Paul would be mixing objective and subjective genitives twice in the same sentence. Therefore just as the 'works of the law' refer to our work in respect of the law, so 'faith of Christ' refers to our faith in respect od Christ, and the modern translations are correct to render it as 'faith in Christ.'

πιστεως, translated "faith of" is a genative singular. A genative case noun in Greek indicates a possessive, or the case of "belonging to." However, a genative in Greek can also indicate origin or separation, "from" something. In this case the most literal translation would be "the faith (coming) from Christ."

 

[SovereignGrace]

A few thoughts on the 'faith of Christ.' It seems to be being suggested that this refers to the personal faith of our Lord which saves us.
It is the question of a subjective or an objective genitive. Consider:
'The fear of God.' Is it God who fears? Or is it our fear towards, or in respect of, God? 'The love of money.' Is it the money that loves? Or is it our love towards, or in respect of, money?
So 'Faith of Christ.' is it Christ who has the faith? Or is it our faith towards or in respect of Christ? The context decides.

Consider Galatians 2:16, quoted above by Kyredneck. The 'faith of Christ' is being contrasted with the 'works of the law.' Is it the law that works? Or is it our work in respect of the law? Surely the latter. It seems most unlikely to me that Paul would be mixing objective and subjective genitives twice in the same sentence. Therefore just as the 'works of the law' refer to our work in respect of the law, so 'faith of Christ' refers to our faith in respect od Christ, and the modern translations are correct to render it as 'faith in Christ.'

 

[SovereignGrace]

Again Jeremiah 1:5 We see The Lord tell Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

God knew him what did he know about Jeremiah?


The Hebrew word yada which means according to "Strongs" to perceive and see find out and discern, God knew Jeremiah he had perception of him before he was formed in the womb. We see Calvin's commentary on this passage, "Jeremiah then was not actually sanctified in the womb, but set apart according to God’s predestination and hidden purpose; that is, God chose him then to be a Prophet. It may be asked, whether he was not chosen before the creation of the world? To this it may be readily answered, that he was indeed foreknown by God before the world was made;


John Gill "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,.... Not merely by his omniscience, so he knows all men before their conception and birth; but with such a knowledge as had special love and affection joined with it; in which sense the Lord knows them that are his, as he does not others, and predestinates them unto eternal life; and which is not only before their formation in the womb, but before the foundation of the world, even from all eternity. The forming of the human foetus is God's act, and a curious piece of workmanship it is"


Ironside states this "All was foreseen long, long before its actual occurrence; everything was provided for. Satan, sin, and their attendant evils, have in no wise interfered with His purpose, "who worketh all things according to the counsel of His own will." (Ephesians 1:11)"


God knew Jeremiah, knew all about him before he was formed in the womb. Just as He knew you and me before we were formed and because of his knowing us beforehand that is by His foreknowledge, His Omniscience, He knew everything and nothing about our lives surprises Him, nothing about our choices Surprises Him, for He knew exactly what was and for that matter He knows exactly what is going to happen before it occurred or occurs. That is His Omnsceince and His knowing us beforehand. He already knows the outcome of every situation before it occurs. Calvin states it, Gill too as well as Ironside. Strongs show's it as the perception of God, "I perceived thee before I formed thee in the Womb". Now what does the word foreknow mean=to have previous knowledge of, know beforehand especially by paranormal [merriam webster states paranormal] ([revmwc] Spiritual) means or revelation. The word is very clear God knew everything about Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb. To me that indicates an Omniscient (all knowing) God of which I serve, knew ALL about Jeremiah as well as us and based on that foreknowledge He did predestinate us to be conformed to the image of His dear son, He did predestinated Jeremiah to be a prophet to the nation based upon knowing ALL about Jeremiah beforehand, all by His Sovereignty.

Again, you have redefined true biblical foreknowledge. It is not merely God looking through the corridors of time and seeing who had faith, who would be willing to do 'this or that', but His foreknowledge is based upon that which He has decreed to come to pass. You have taken foreknowledge and reduced it down to mental assent.

God knows everybody via creation, via procreation of man and woman, but only foreknows His via regeneration of the Spirit. For God to 'know' someone as a covenant child is to know them intimately. Just like Adam knew Eve and she conceived through this knowing. That is why Jesus will say to the goats on the left "depart from Me, for I never 'knew' you." It wasn't that Jesus didn't know their existence, as He knows us all, all mankind, but didn't 'know' the goats via redemption.

 

[kyredneck]

So 'Faith of Christ.' is it Christ who has the faith? Or is it our faith towards or in respect of Christ? The context decides.

2 looking to the author and perfecter of faith -- Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him -- did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down; Heb 12 YLT

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, Eph 2 YLT

 

[revmwc]

Again, you have redefined true biblical foreknowledge. It is nor merely God looking through the corridors of time and seeing who had faith, who would be willing to do 'this or that', but His foreknowledge is based upon that which He has decreed to come to pass. You have taken foreknowledge and reduced it down to mental assent.

God knows everybody via creation, via procreation of man and woman, but only foreknows His via regeneration of the Spirit. For God to 'know' someone as a covenant child is to know them intimately. Just like Adam knew Eve and she conceived through this knowing. That is why Jesus will say to the goats on the left "depart from Me, for I never 'knew' you." It wasn't that Jesus didn't know their existence, as He knows us all, all mankind, but didn't 'know' the goats via redemption.

So Calvin stating it along with the others I have are incorrect about foreknowledge. God knows us all intimately right down to the day of our birth as well as the day we will die and He has known it all since eternity past