Is Graham an apostate?

[ituttut]

]Originally posted by Brother James:
- Graham also believes that men can be saved apart from the Name of Christ. (Source: 5/31/98 television interview with Robert Schuller, as reported in the May-June 1997, Foundation magazine.):

Brother James this does look suspicious to me as well, and you are asking good questions, and as far as I can tell (here) you have not judged this man, Billy Graham. I’ll also “try” not to, but it seems Billy is torn between the Grace of God that comes to us (all today) through Jesus Christ, and the Grace of God that came to the “circumcised” by faith looking forward to.

He is, I believe trying to cover all the bases, making applicable today, not understanding as God dispenses His Grace as He will in dealing with we in the flesh. I fear the Reverend Graham is failing to recognize his very own personal Apostle, Paul, the only Apostle chosen by Christ to reveal and preach to the heathen world His (Christ’s) dispensational gospel that includes all today. I Corinthians 9:17, ”For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me, ” as well as Ephesians 3.

Christ’s gospel is given to Paul, and it becomes Paul’s gospel just as the gospel of the “circumcision” applies only to those from Abraham (not Abram) through Isaac and Jacob. The only way we are allowed into this group is through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. The law of Moses was Moses’ law for his God committed it to him, just as Paul's gospel was committed to him.

Why do people doubt and refuse the Gospel of Paul? Are these the same types that refused the gospel of John the Baptist that preached to Israel (and only Israel) that they were to “repent and be baptized for the remission of their sin? Who was it of those under Covenant with God, and the Law and the law of ordinances that refused to be baptized and receive their King? It was the Leaders of that nation?

That whole nation of Israel had a Religion and that was the Religion of the Jew. Those of authority and in High Places would not accept the gospel of John the Baptist which was the “kingdom is at hand”, and they refused their King. Who are these people? The one’s the people looked up to for guidance in what they believed and their daily life and dealings with man. This was the Sanhedrin, regardless of how we wish to describe this council today. They were the power.

These were the Legalists, the High Priest, the Pharisees, a council of 71 as held by most scholars. This was the most high Court that ruled the affairs of the nation Israel. These were the “orators”, “writer’s” of that legalist society of the religion of Laws, living under covenant with God.

Today there is no nation of God, but individual’s, most belonging to some denomination. All of these High “orators” and High “writers” in or out of a denomination are able to sway millions of people. We pray they all “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation” for they are leading to Heaven, or perhaps some may believe going to the “kingdom by way of the tribulation” to inherit the earth. If any believe they are not saved just by believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I will not speculate, but I am not sure of their position with God, but we know they are not positioned in the Body of Christ.

All I can say if any of those that man looks-up to, today, are preaching “works”, I sure hope they mean and identify with our being “born to good works”, after our entrance into His Body, and not trying to carry them thinking they are their ticket to gain entrance.

I know Billy Graham left himself open to rightful doubt among some of us wondering just what did he mean when he said on Fox News, (START)“Tony Snow: "You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place?” Billy Graham: “Yes, because I have not – I'm not a righteous man. People put me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much.".(END)

I just cannot believe a Christian, one that believes on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, does not understand that there is no righteousness outside of Christ. Is righteousness of Works, or Faith in Christ Jesus? Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Brice]

Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />]Originally posted by Brother James:
- Graham also believes that men can be saved apart from the Name of Christ. (Source: 5/31/98 television interview with Robert Schuller, as reported in the May-June 1997, Foundation magazine.):

I know Billy Graham left himself open to rightful doubt among some of us wondering just what did he mean when he said on Fox News, (START)“Tony Snow: "You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place?” Billy Graham: “Yes, because I have not – I'm not a righteous man. People put me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much.".(END)

I just cannot believe a Christian, one that believes on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, does not understand that there is no righteousness outside of Christ. Is righteousness of Works, or Faith in Christ Jesus? Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]Forgive me if I misunderstand what you saying. Are you saying that Billy Graham perceives himself to be righteous and he is not or vise versa? God bless.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Brice:
Is Billy Graham an apostate? No. Unless you take a very conservative view of apostasy and in that case we ALL are guilty. Apostasy requires abandoning of ones religious faith, principles or cause. Just because you may not agree with him doesn’t mean he is an apostate. We need to learn as humans, when someone is doing the work of God (although we may not always agree with every aspect) to use restraint in making judgments. It stands to reason that at any given time we could say things that would not align with others thinking, especially in the limelight. Not to mention that we all have different feelings or ideals pertaining to our faith. The man hasn’t denied the trinity or the sacrificial atonement of Christ; he’s saying that that atonement could reach people who don’t have access to a Bible. Whether you agree with this or not is for another discussion, but labeling him an apostate is a bit overboard. Not to mention that the website quoted has an obvious agenda. Take a look at the others that they take to task over statements they have made. Here’s the link - http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/

The list includes –

Chuck Colson
James Dobson
David Jeremiah
D. James Kennedy
Josh McDowell
Max Lucado
John Maxwell
R.C. Sproul
Charles Stanley
Chuck Swindoll
Philip Yancey
Rick Warren

And many others… How Sad.

Hello Brice: This reference is made to no one in particular that invokes the name God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit in their messages, but we need to look very closely at the leaders of millions of people that depend on that leader for what gospel they preach for their guidance and salvation. May times we can know the leader by his followers. Do they praise our Savior God the Father, our Lord God Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit, or is their business always praising the man apart from Christ, or in the same breath?

Is the gospel of only believing on Jesus Christ for salvation preached, and when they do, that is all one will ever have to do for they have entered into the Body of Christ? They are placed there the moment they believe. If any add a command, or an ordinance MUST be done, then we had better take a comprehensive evaluation of this leader of the band before praising them before men, or becoming followers or contributors or broadcasters of greatness and all the “good” they are doing, and will do.

Who is it Jesus calls hypocrites? Are there any that pray the loudest, and longest on the street corners (TV, massive audiences)? Do any exalt themselves? Do any enrich themselves? Do any compass sea and land for their following? They have their reward Jesus says. But we have to balance in temperance for they do preach a gospel of Jesus Christ. Without specifics we cannot make a determination, but we can certainly wonder about one’s behavior, or tongue.

I believe the Christian is to make sure they are following Christ Jesus and His gospel for us today and then preach, teach, witness that gospel from heaven. We cannot judge what we do not know, and that is someone’s salvation just because they evoke the name of Jesus, but we know that every one that does this are not known to Jesus – Matthew 7:23. It’s not those that know and speak His name, but who does Christ know? He will have to know our names when He calls us, whether we are alive or dead. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Brice:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />]Originally posted by Brother James:
- Graham also believes that men can be saved apart from the Name of Christ. (Source: 5/31/98 television interview with Robert Schuller, as reported in the May-June 1997, Foundation magazine.):

I know Billy Graham left himself open to rightful doubt among some of us wondering just what did he mean when he said on Fox News, (START)“Tony Snow: "You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place?” Billy Graham: “Yes, because I have not – I'm not a righteous man. People put me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much.".(END)

I just cannot believe a Christian, one that believes on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, does not understand that there is no righteousness outside of Christ. Is righteousness of Works, or Faith in Christ Jesus? Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]Forgive me if I misunderstand what you saying. Are you saying that Billy Graham perceives himself to be righteous and he is not or vise versa? God bless. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello again Brice. I read it he sees himself as not righteous. His words reveal he sees Mother Teresa as a saint because of her works, and he is not as Mother Teresa, therefore he is not a saint.

I only know what was said, and to whom he compared himself with. That opened up doubt in my mind of his understanding of his “standing” in Christ. If he believes he is in Christ then why is he comparing himself with a “worker of works”, and not with Christ Jesus who is righteous.

To me he has distanced himself from the righteousness of Christ with his remark he, Billy Graham says he is not righteous and is afraid when he tries to enter he may be in the wrong place. That means there is only one other place left where he will be welcome. To me that is faith in SELF, and not salvation through the faith of Jesus Christ. As he is says he is short of the “works” that Mother Teresa has accomplished, he is not as righteous as she. His statement says she is the target to shoot for; that is our aim to do as many or more works than Mother Teresa and we will also become “righteous”, for she is a Saint. I do not see Christ mentioned in the exchange. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Brice]

Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brice:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />]Originally posted by Brother James:
- Graham also believes that men can be saved apart from the Name of Christ. (Source: 5/31/98 television interview with Robert Schuller, as reported in the May-June 1997, Foundation magazine.):

I know Billy Graham left himself open to rightful doubt among some of us wondering just what did he mean when he said on Fox News, (START)“Tony Snow: "You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place?” Billy Graham: “Yes, because I have not – I'm not a righteous man. People put me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much.".(END)

I just cannot believe a Christian, one that believes on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, does not understand that there is no righteousness outside of Christ. Is righteousness of Works, or Faith in Christ Jesus? Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]Forgive me if I misunderstand what you saying. Are you saying that Billy Graham perceives himself to be righteous and he is not or vise versa? God bless. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello again Brice. I read it he sees himself as not righteous. His words reveal he sees Mother Teresa as a saint because of her works, and he is not as Mother Teresa, therefore he is not a saint.

I only know what was said, and to whom he compared himself with. That opened up doubt in my mind of his understanding of his “standing” in Christ. If he believes he is in Christ then why is he comparing himself with a “worker of works”, and not with Christ Jesus who is righteous.

To me he has distanced himself from the righteousness of Christ with his remark he, Billy Graham says he is not righteous and is afraid when he tries to enter he may be in the wrong place. That means there is only one other place left where he will be welcome. To me that is faith in SELF, and not salvation through the faith of Jesus Christ. As he is says he is short of the “works” that Mother Teresa has accomplished, he is not as righteous as she. His statement says she is the target to shoot for; that is our aim to do as many or more works than Mother Teresa and we will also become “righteous”, for she is a Saint. I do not see Christ mentioned in the exchange. Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]I read the statement and wanted to make sure I understood the point you were trying to make, but thanks for the response. We don’t see this from the same angle, but your answer is heartfelt and sincere. I will respond more in the morning, I am very tired. God bless..

 

[genesis12]

I believe, based upon listening to Billy, and viewing his telecasts, that in his later years he became somewhat limited. Somewhat senile, for want of a better term. I thank God for his ministry, will give him the benefit of the doubt in some of his statements, including those made in his later years with Larry King. I pray that in accordance with God's will, he and his beloved wife will slip on out to glory, together.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by genesis12:
I believe, based upon listening to Billy, and viewing his telecasts, that in his later years he became somewhat limited. Somewhat senile, for want of a better term. I thank God for his ministry, will give him the benefit of the doubt in some of his statements, including those made in his later years with Larry King. I pray that in accordance with God's will, he and his beloved wife will slip on out to glory, together.

Wonderful thoughts, and I hope this to be so. As posted “I just cannot believe a Christian, one that believes on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, does not understand that there is no righteousness outside of Christ.” But then again that is a minority view. I cannot judge him, the Catholic church or other’s of not being in the “kingdom” if what they believe is what James teaches of the Pentecostal church. Their works show their faith. Jesus has a kingdom, and he gives the Apostles in the kingdom to come their own kingdom, of which James will be in. I know I am in the kingdom of Christ Jesus for I am made righteous in Him, and will be where He is; but I cannot unequivocally say another Christian will be with Christ forever in the “kingdom of God”.

But I fear Dr. Graham has thought for some time now he is not on a “steady foundation”; or could we say is he on two foundations at the same time, both built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. It seems to me he has now decided on the foundation that Peter laid, for in May 30, 1997, in an interview with David Frost he says “I’M EQUALLY AT HOME IN A BAPTIST CHURCH, ANGLICAN CHURCH, OR ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH." These churches believe different things, and some things are more meaningful to each church. I don’t feel comfortable in trying to believe in three different doctrines, and I can't understand those that do. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Brice]

Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by genesis12:
I believe, based upon listening to Billy, and viewing his telecasts, that in his later years he became somewhat limited. Somewhat senile, for want of a better term. I thank God for his ministry, will give him the benefit of the doubt in some of his statements, including those made in his later years with Larry King. I pray that in accordance with God's will, he and his beloved wife will slip on out to glory, together.

Wonderful thoughts, and I hope this to be so. As posted “I just cannot believe a Christian, one that believes on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, does not understand that there is no righteousness outside of Christ.” But then again that is a minority view. I cannot judge him, the Catholic church or other’s of not being in the “kingdom” if what they believe is what James teaches of the Pentecostal church. Their works show their faith. Jesus has a kingdom, and he gives the Apostles in the kingdom to come their own kingdom, of which James will be in. I know I am in the kingdom of Christ Jesus for I am made righteous in Him, and will be where He is; but I cannot unequivocally say another Christian will be with Christ forever in the “kingdom of God”.

But I fear Dr. Graham has thought for some time now he is not on a “steady foundation”; or could we say is he on two foundations at the same time, both built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. It seems to me he has now decided on the foundation that Peter laid, for in May 30, 1997, in an interview with David Frost he says “I’M EQUALLY AT HOME IN A BAPTIST CHURCH, ANGLICAN CHURCH, OR ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH." These churches believe different things, and some things are more meaningful to each church. I don’t feel comfortable in trying to believe in three different doctrines, and I can't understand those that do. Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I forgot about this thread. Anyway, there is no need to really expand on this to much (it is clear that neither side will make much progress), but as far as being righteous. I think he is pointing out exactly what you feel, that there is no righteousness outside of Christ, hence his statement that he isn’t righteous. As far as Mother Teresa, he was just using someone that many look at as being a good person, to point out that he is not a perfect person. He said people should not hold him up as anything more then a sinful person. That is 100% biblical. I make off-the-cuff comments all the time like “who do you think I am Mother Teresa”. I feel this probably falls into the same category, not elevating her to a literal righteous place, more so saying that he is not righteous. This will probably be my last post in this thread, but thank you for being polite in your responses. God bless and hope that you get something out of this post that is beneficial.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Brice:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by genesis12:
I believe, based upon listening to Billy, and viewing his telecasts, that in his later years he became somewhat limited. Somewhat senile, for want of a better term. I thank God for his ministry, will give him the benefit of the doubt in some of his statements, including those made in his later years with Larry King. I pray that in accordance with God's will, he and his beloved wife will slip on out to glory, together.

Wonderful thoughts, and I hope this to be so. As posted “I just cannot believe a Christian, one that believes on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, does not understand that there is no righteousness outside of Christ.” But then again that is a minority view. I cannot judge him, the Catholic church or other’s of not being in the “kingdom” if what they believe is what James teaches of the Pentecostal church. Their works show their faith. Jesus has a kingdom, and he gives the Apostles in the kingdom to come their own kingdom, of which James will be in. I know I am in the kingdom of Christ Jesus for I am made righteous in Him, and will be where He is; but I cannot unequivocally say another Christian will be with Christ forever in the “kingdom of God”.

But I fear Dr. Graham has thought for some time now he is not on a “steady foundation”; or could we say is he on two foundations at the same time, both built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. It seems to me he has now decided on the foundation that Peter laid, for in May 30, 1997, in an interview with David Frost he says “I’M EQUALLY AT HOME IN A BAPTIST CHURCH, ANGLICAN CHURCH, OR ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH." These churches believe different things, and some things are more meaningful to each church. I don’t feel comfortable in trying to believe in three different doctrines, and I can't understand those that do. Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I forgot about this thread. Anyway, there is no need to really expand on this to much (it is clear that neither side will make much progress), but as far as being righteous. I think he is pointing out exactly what you feel, that there is no righteousness outside of Christ, hence his statement that he isn’t righteous. As far as Mother Teresa, he was just using someone that many look at as being a good person, to point out that he is not a perfect person. He said people should not hold him up as anything more then a sinful person. That is 100% biblical. I make off-the-cuff comments all the time like “who do you think I am Mother Teresa”. I feel this probably falls into the same category, not elevating her to a literal righteous place, more so saying that he is not righteous. This will probably be my last post in this thread, but thank you for being polite in your responses. God bless and hope that you get something out of this post that is beneficial. </font>[/QUOTE]Since this is good bye in this thread, I thank you Christian friend for your understanding, and I hope you have taken away with you understanding that perhaps we that are not Catholic should not point to Mother Teresa, as you have done so in the past, to hold up for others to look up to. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[EdSutton]

FTR, Billy Graham is, or at least was a 'member' of First Baptist Church, Dallas Texas.
Ed

 

[jarhed]

I was just watching a program about G. Bush called "The Jesus Element." He is talking to his mother in one session and gives Barbara his testimony of salvation. He tells her she must be saved to get to heaven. She says, is that right, we'll just call Dr. Bill and see! They call Billy Graham personnally and he tells her NO! It is not necessary...you are already a believer, just do your best and you will be alright! UNBELIEVABLE. I could not believe what I was hearing. I was saved at a Billy Graham crusade in Grand Rapids Michigan in 1971. I remember saying yes to Christ and standing up in my seat to walk to the isle...I did go forward and pray the sinners prayer, but I KNOW I was saved the moment I stood up and PUT MY FAITH IN CHRIST. Poor Dr. Graham...the best she can do will take her straight to a devils' hell. This is APOSTACISM. Period. Gal.1:8 says he is accursed. This is not the same Gospel in different words...no, in his effort to compromise Dr. Graham has forsaken THE essential. It breaks my heart.

 

[EdSutton]

The late Harold Lindsell was also a member of FBC, Dallas
Ed

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by EdSutton:
The late Harold Lindsell was also a member of FBC, Dallas
Ed

Hello Ed. Baptist's are diverse a group. Everybody in the Catholic church will not make it, and everybody in the Baptist church will not make it. Not every body that belongs to a church down here is going to make it.

Anyone and everyone in the Body of Christ will be with Christ Jesus forever. All else is up for grabs. We can only surmise, and when we (most of us) do doesn’t mean we are judging, we are only saying we are not sure about a person, for they don’t seem to grasp the realization that they can do nothing to make themselves better.

When anyone puts into words they just have to have a lot of works, we have to wonder about such a person, regardless of their standing in the community or the world. This is anyone that pushes works before or after salvation. If we are born to them we will do them or we won't, but we are to know either way, we will not be turned away.

We won’t judge that person or others that “push” hard at works, but surely we can give our opinion for we have evidence proving a lack of understanding, but not enough evidence for a final judgment. If one actually believes in their heart that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation saves them, that person will be saved, and that person should know they are not worthy but by the Grace of God they are.

It is Christ who knows for sure, but we down here don’t, so we have reservations when people are not sure they are good enough to get into the kingdom. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[EdSutton]

Hi ituttut: I am a member of a baptist church, myself. Someone once said, "What organized church are you a member of?" I said, I'm not a member of any organized church- I'm a Baptist!' Heh! Heh! Heh!
Ed

 

[nate]

No Billy Graham is not an apostate. I really enjoyed it when NBC interviewed Graham as he was about to head his last crusade Brain Williams asked Graham something and he said he wasn't afraid to die he was anxious to go to heaven. And Williams just sat there dumbfounded.

Mr. Graham.

 

[saturneptune]

No Billy Graham is NOT apostate. Try Jerry Falwell, Jim Bakker, and Jimmy Swaggart for that title.

Besides Graham, Hagee, Stanley, and Kennedy are champions of the day.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by saturneptune:
Besides Graham, Hagee, Stanley, and Kennedy are champions of the day.

And I disagree with all of those folks sometimes.

However, just because I disagree with them from time to time does not make them apostate. Some folks can't discern that difference.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Johnv:
The "interview" in the OP pops up on posts from time to time. No one can ever find the whole interview, just this very brief snippet. Without the overall context given, it becomes extremely difficult, if not impossible, to judge this snippet with objectivity.

John, This snippet if true provides its own context quite well. What could he possibly qualify these statements with that would make them consistent with the biblical gospel?

If these are in fact his words... then he is an apostate of the worst order.

When compared to the immense bulk of rock-solid Gospel preaching that Graham has done over his lifetime, the accusation of him being an apostate begins to lose objective credibility.

The Graham of the past didn't make these statements. Whatever "rock-solid" Gospel preaching he might have done does not justify such gross heresy.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by saturneptune:
No Billy Graham is NOT apostate. Try Jerry Falwell, Jim Bakker, and Jimmy Swaggart for that title.

Besides Graham, Hagee, Stanley, and Kennedy are champions of the day.

Sorry but any man that preaches a gospel different than the one delivered to us in the NT is apostate. If Graham said these things... he has marked himself.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brice:
Apostasy requires abandoning of ones religious faith, principles or cause.

If he says that one doesn't need to know Jesus Christ personally through the gospel preached... then he has certainly done this.