-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is hell eternal?
- Thread starter Boanerges
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BTW the only reason I even offered this post (after 23 pages of not posting it in full) is that some have asked to look at "other texts" besides Matt 10 and 2Peter 2 and Jude 7 and Rev 14 (you know -- the ones I have been bringing up here).
Since sticking to a "small set" was a problem for some here - I decided to show the "bigger picture" -- who knows someone here may be up for "reading".
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3603/23.html#000335
Since sticking to a "small set" was a problem for some here - I decided to show the "bigger picture" -- who knows someone here may be up for "reading".
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3603/23.html#000335
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
[quite]Bob said
#1. It does not say "Eternal conscious torment"
#2. It does not say "tormented eternally".
[/quote]
Note that the issue where is the exact language NOT simply a reference in one place to "torment" or a reference to "eternal fire" in another.
But will the "twist and bend" engine working against this view deal with this obvous point?
So again - we have "re-invention" working in that response.
In order to carry the discussion forward the simple facts have to be left in tact so that we can exchange views and evaluate the more complex issues. To continually have to go back and correct the basics of the points made - is not constructive to the dialog.
In Christ,
Bob
#1. It does not say "Eternal conscious torment"
#2. It does not say "tormented eternally".
[/quote]
Note that the issue where is the exact language NOT simply a reference in one place to "torment" or a reference to "eternal fire" in another.
But will the "twist and bend" engine working against this view deal with this obvous point?
I never denied that!
So again - we have "re-invention" working in that response.
In order to carry the discussion forward the simple facts have to be left in tact so that we can exchange views and evaluate the more complex issues. To continually have to go back and correct the basics of the points made - is not constructive to the dialog.
In Christ,
Bob
Then we're all hellbound, because there is not a single person here who has differing interpretation from another.
Then again, there's a difference between interpretation and scripture twisting. But some accuse others of "scripture twisting" on any issue where someone doesn't agree with their interpretation.
The spirit is an entity in itself and always has been. It is referred to in the Scripture consistently as such. If you were to take the Old Testament Scripture and look up the Hebrew word word "Sheol" you would find that its primary meanind is "place of the departed dead." It rarely, if ever means grave. The Hebrew has another word for grave. I believe it ie keber. Sheol means place of the departed dead (spirits). When the Hebrews talked of dying, and the KJV used the word Hell, the weren't thinking of going down to either the grave or to Hell, they were thinking of going to paradise. The entire picture is painted by our Lord in Luke 16 by our Lord in the story of the rich man and Lazarus where sheol is the place of the departed dead--one place for the unsaved and one place for the saved, separated by chasm which no man could cross. In the picture drawn by our Lord it was the spirits of Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man that were in paradise and Hell respectively, not their bodies.
What happened to the "Spirit" of Jesus when he "died" and his body was three days and three three nights in the grave? Obviously when God took on human flesh, "God as spirit" continued to live. We are made in the image of God. We are spirit beings. When this body dies we shall be as the angels and be given a celestial body as described in 1Cor.15. It is the spirit that lives. Like the angels we are spirit beings clothed temporarily with an earthly body. Someday this earthly body will put on a celestial body. Read the 15th chapter of 1Corinthians. It is the spirit that lives on forever--whether in hell or heaven according to the choice on earth that they make--the rejection of Christ or receiving Him.
Man is a spirit being. He is made higher than the animals, which have no spirit. Your evolutionary thinking has placed man on par with an animal. YOu think that man is an animal and lives like an animal with no other aim in sight but to eat, sleep and have sex. That is what animals live for. Think about it.
Man was created for a higher function--to live for the praise and honor of the Lord Jesus Christ. They can only do that when the spirit within them is made alive, quickened by the Holy Spirit (made operable). That teaching is given is Eph.2:1. It is also the meaning behind the sense of being born again. When one is born again he is given new life in Christ. His spirit is made alive in Christ. It is his spirit that enables him to communicate with God, and that spirit will live on for all eternity.
The just in heaven;
And the unjust in hell
DHK
The above comment was made by DHK in response to Bob in relation to the text Revelation 20:10 which reads: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Please consider the following texts (rendered in the NASB) in which the Hebrew word owlam (which I think we all agree has "everlasting" as its basic defintion) appears in the original Hebrew:
Jonah 1:
17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Jonah 2:
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever (owlam or olam): yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.
Is it not clear that this is an example of "owlam" not really meaning forever, since Jonah was really only in the fish for 3 days?.
Also consider:
1 Samuel 1:22
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide for ever (owlam or olam).
1 Samual 1:28 Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord. And he worshipped the Lord there.
Hannah seems to specify what she means by the term “forever” when she says in verse 28, “as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord.”
How do these texts not seriously damage the argument that "forever means forever"?
The proponent of the "eternal torment" position cannot, without some further argument, simply claim that "forever means forever" given that we have Biblical precedent for its use in a way that clearly does not mean forever.
To DHK and Boanerges: I believe that I have read everything you both have written (but I could have missed something and / or forgotten). Clearly, you would not simply ignore the implications of these texts where owlam does not mean forever. Have I missed your explanation for such texts?
Some texts on the nature of the spirit (I acknowledge that these texts have been provided to me by someone who has the same view that I do the re the nature of the spirit).
Something from the OT re what happens when man dies.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it –Ecclesiastes 12:7
But man dieth, and wasteth away. Yea, man giveth up the ghost (spirit) and where is he? – Job 14:10
The 'spirit going back to God' is not just for righteous but for every man (at least this is my reading). Hence, even the wicked man's 'spirit' goes back to God. This seems to clash with the notion that the spirit of an unredeemed person goes immediately to hell after death. Now, I realize that I have said I do not believe in an immaterial spirit that survives death. My explanation for how I reconcile such a view with the idea of the spirit returning to God will hopefully be dealt with in another post.
Notice the same reference to be used for Christ dying on the cross and Stephen being stoned.
Luke 23:46: And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
I have been told (cannot presently confirm this) that more modern translations render 'he gave up the ghost' with 'And Jesus breathed His last'.
Acts 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus receive my spirit.
What is this spirit or ‘ghost’ and is it immortal? Notice the next verse in Acts 7
"Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep."
Something from the OT re what happens when man dies.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it –Ecclesiastes 12:7
But man dieth, and wasteth away. Yea, man giveth up the ghost (spirit) and where is he? – Job 14:10
The 'spirit going back to God' is not just for righteous but for every man (at least this is my reading). Hence, even the wicked man's 'spirit' goes back to God. This seems to clash with the notion that the spirit of an unredeemed person goes immediately to hell after death. Now, I realize that I have said I do not believe in an immaterial spirit that survives death. My explanation for how I reconcile such a view with the idea of the spirit returning to God will hopefully be dealt with in another post.
Notice the same reference to be used for Christ dying on the cross and Stephen being stoned.
Luke 23:46: And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
I have been told (cannot presently confirm this) that more modern translations render 'he gave up the ghost' with 'And Jesus breathed His last'.
Acts 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus receive my spirit.
What is this spirit or ‘ghost’ and is it immortal? Notice the next verse in Acts 7
"Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep."
Your reasoning is both fallacious if not absurd.
The Bible talks of the four corners of the earht. Do you really believe the earth has "four corners?"
It speaks of God having wings--He will take us under his wing. Do you really believe that God has wings?
Jesus said "I am the door." Funny, I never pictured Christ as a door!!
How absurd your logic is! Go read Jonah again. He was praying out of the belly of the whale. His entire prayer was full of metaphors, similies, figures of speech. And yet you want to take this one phrase out of that passage and say because it is also figurative (as is the whole passage) that the rendering of the straightforward literal passage in Rev.20:10 is not figurative. Absurd! The Bible says to rightly divide the Word of Truth, not to wrongly butcher. Use proper hermeneutics.
Hannah prayed and said she would leave her son in the Temple forever. Perhaps her meaning was literal. Her son referred to what she was looking at: Samuel--the body of Samuel, in which case Samuel did remain there forever. He was no doubt buried there, and will remain there forever, or until the resurrection takes place. At any rate Hannah dedicated Samuel to the Lord forever. That is the true sense of the passage. He is in the presence of the Lord, both on earth and in heaven forever. Even if you don't want to take my literal explanation of the word, words as well as phrases often have more than one meaning. Look in any dictionary. You would be foolish to deny this fact. Hannah was no doubt using this phrase in an idiomatic and figurative way which is a far cry from the literal sense that it is used in Revelation 20. I pity you if you cannot differentiate between the figurative and the literal. Does Christ actually look like a door to you? You really can't differentiate between the figurative and the literal? Give me a break!
When you quoted 1Sam.1:28, you defeated your own argument. Obviously Hannah meant "as long as he liveth." There are more than one meanings to different words. Forever Hannah defined for you. Can't you take her definition at face value. Words have meanings. There is a difference between figurative and literal.
Thus you refuse to acknowledge that words have more than one meaning. You try to fit a figurative meaning into a literal passage.
I ask you again: Do you really think that Christ looks like a door? This is the absuridity of your logic when defining forever as figurative in Revelation 20:10.
DHK
Do you not see how your own words boomerang and damage your position on this matter? The careful reader will note that I have never denied the use of metaphor in the Scriptures. You create a strawman when you represent me as denying the use of metaphor and then attack that position. Someone who denies the use of metaphor in Scripture would indeed be employing absurd logic. I certainly have not done this.
My very point has been that some uses of "forever and ever" are metaphorical. When I provided the Jonah and Samuel texts, I demonstrated that "forever does not always mean forever". By showing its metaphorical usage in those texts, I show a Biblical precedent has been set for metaphorical usage of "forever" - sometimes forever refers to a limited period of time. It then follows that a proponent of the "eternal torment" position cannot simply claim a "common-sense" reading of Rev 20:10. Do I have to explain why?
Well, I will anyway. If the word "eternal" is sometimes used metaphorically (and I really mean "non-literally" here), then it might have been used metaphorically in Rev 20:10. The proponent of "eternal torment" needs to make a case against metaphorical usage in order to eliminate the "metaphorical use" hypothesis which competes against the "forever really means forever" hypothesis in respect to REv 20:10 (or similar verses). Have you or any fellow ETers done this? Which post?
But it isn't being used figuratively. Where is your hermeneutics here? Always take things literally unless the context requires one to take the passage figuratively as in a figure of speech or otherwise.
Learn hermeneutics. We just can't allegorize whenever we want. John was literally describing a scene in heaven. He was using words to define what he saw. He was not using figurative language as Jonah was in the belly of the whale. There is a great difference. He is describing in very accurately the scene before him, as literally as possible. It is called the Great White Throne Judgement. He is describing the Judgement of God and its consequences. There is nothing figurative about this passage. God, through the eyes of John, is giving us a glimpse into heaven and all of its glory, as well as a picture of its judgement and its consequences which are very devasating.
John was very literal when he said He saw God, when still was on earth. He was literal in his description:
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Whe beheld his glory John says. And what glory did he behold when upon the Mount of transfiguration!
If he was literal here, have I know reason not to take him literal in other places.
DHK
Fair enough. I have re-read Rev 20. To me, it certainly contains elements that suggest allegory / metaphor:
- Reference to a "chain" used to bind Satan
- Reference to those who have been beheaded - I tend to think this is a general "metaphorical" reference to those who have been martyred.
- The mark on the forehead. Do you really think there will be such marks on people's foreheads? Its possible, of course. But common sense suggests that this is symbolic.
- Reference to Satan as a dragon or a serpent.
- Talk of the "earth and sky fleeing"
- Reference to the sea giving up its dead.
I will think about this some more, but my first reaction is that the chapter contains a strong element of "allegory" and / or symbolic language.
Outstanding - do you have quote from them that I could use?
Do you actually "Read" what they have written?
In Christ,
Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, and they made my eyes glassy too.
Especially the part about Ellen White being a latter day prophet. After comparing her accuracy to the Biblical standard, I came up with a vastly different opinion.Hence my oft-repeated reference to Isaiah 34.
And I agree that your approach that consists of actually reading and responding to the points made in the discussion is the most productive and objective one to take.
In Christ,
Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Hebrew is a contextual language Bob. Many times, the use of a concordance will only cause confusion. Ask the scholars what owlam means contextually in Daniel 12:2 and get back to me....
While I am of the view that Hell is eternal, Boanerges speaks wisely. OT Hebrew is a very contextual language, and a concordance or Hebrew dictionary alone does not adequately define the contextual usage. Add to that the custom of OT Hebrews to rely a lot on anaogy and metaphor in common conversation. Hopefully, we all know that Jesus was not being literal when he wsa talking about the camel and the eye of the needle.
NT koine Greek is not dissimilar.
NT koine Greek is not dissimilar.
I really don't see this. Consider some guy Fred who tells his girlfriend: "I will love you forever and ever". We know that he is speaking figuratively. If Fred were to say "I will love you day and night, forever and ever", we would still say he is speaking figuratively.
Now, this analogy is a little unfair because we are basically certain that Fred is speaking literally (because we know all boyfriends eventually die). This not the case re the life beyond. In other words the Rev text is consistent with "eternal torment". But I see no reason to conclude with any confidence that it requires an "eternal torment" interpretation - a metaphorical usage also seems possible.
While we wait to hear about the scholars, I provided a "theory" (on page 16 of this thread) that still lets "owlam" mean forever, yet does not indicate eternal conscious torment. The basic idea was that it might be God who is "doing the abhorring" and that he does it forever, even though the lost are long since annihilated.
You responded with "Does anyone really believe that God wants to sit around and remember the deeds of the wicked after they have been judged for the final time? Below is a demonstration of how he treats the Saints...."
I pointed out that you were speculating about what God would or would not do and that your material about how God treats the saints was not relevant since it is the fate of the lost that is at issue.
Do you have a response? You at least provided an argument that those doing the abhorring could not be the saints, but, as far as I know, you did not rule out the possibility that God is "abhorring the lost" for an eternity - his state of abhorrence is permanent, even though the lost are ultimately annihilated. Such an interpretation is both plausble (until someone argues otherwise) and allows "owlam" to mean eternal.