Is hell eternal?

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by DHK:
There is a lot of Scripture twisting there Bob.

I have seen that approach before.

The Lake of Fire will be destroyed??

Is this the part where you quote me?

I am not aware that I ever spoke of fire as "destroyed". Even the fire in my fire place does not get "destroyed".

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
--It is not destroyed if they are tormented day and night forever and ever. The only thing that is destroyed is your manipulation of Scripture texts.

Well number one I congratulate you for the correct and consistent use of the word "Destroyed".

The good news is that Matt 10 uses it the same way you are using it above --

Death is ended.
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26)


The Lake of FIRE IS the 2nd death Rev 20:18 – So it too ends.


The wicked are “consumed” they are “destroyted”.

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

“You will make them a fiery oven in the time of your anger; The Lord will swallow them up in His wrath, fire will devour them. Their offspring you will Destroy from the earth..”

</font>[/QUOTE][/quote]

DHK
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--The same fate awaits all of the unsaved.

Well we agree on "something" at least when it comes to this topic.

That is number 2.

The rest of your references refer to the body being burned up and, according to the First Law of Thermodynamcs: that matter is neither created nor destroyed, but is simply turned into from of matter (or energy) into another.

I have no problem with your insisting that the "destruction" of Matt 10 of BOTH Body and soul leaves some kind of nonfunctional residue plus gas.

The point is Christ claims that BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED.

And yes - that would be 'destroyed'.

So when the body is destroyed (completely) it is turned into ashes--another form of matter.

Indeed - gas and a solid that no longer function as a human being - as a human body.

Malachi 4 talks about the saint walking on the ashes of the wicked.

The destruction of BOTH the body AND soul (in the Lake of Fire - the second death - fiery hell) is as devastating and permanent to one as it is to the other.

DHK
God is able to destroy both... It doesn't say he does.

Ahh finally you provide an actual example of "Scripture twisting"! My congratulations after saying that you were using the term without ever giving an example. The one you give above is perfect!

here is what the text "really says"

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Here is your twist of it -

"DHK10:28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell but would never do such a thing. Just think about the fact that HE COULD if He really really wanted to."

The rework you are proposing fails every test of exegesis. It is a pure form of the scripture twisting idea you have been talking so much about.

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

 

[BobRyan]

As for the "torment forever and ever" this gets back to the "Smoke ascends up forever and ever" that we saw in Isaiah 34.

Isaiah 34
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

Who lives in the land where none will pass through "forever and ever" where the smoke ascends up "forever"?

 

[BobRyan]

The wicked are “consumed”

Rev 20:9

Rev 20
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Heb 10:27

Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

2Peter 3:7-12

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

Ezek 28:18

Ezek 28 &lt;Speaking of Satan&gt;
18
"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"

Ps 104:35

Ps 104.
35Let sinners be consumed from the earth
And let the wicked be no more
Bless the LORD, O my soul
Praise the LORD!

 

[Andre]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
As for the "torment forever and ever" this gets back to the "Smoke ascends up forever and ever" that we saw in Isaiah 34.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Isaiah 34
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

Who lives in the land where none will pass through "forever and ever" where the smoke ascends up "forever"? </font>[/QUOTE]I have wondered about this too. How would those who believe in eternal torment argue against a claim that this material at least sets a precedent for the use of "forever and ever" in a metaphorical sense? From the point of view of consistent argument, I do not believe that they can claim the "forever means forever" argument unless they think people still do not "pass through" Edom.

The important point being that while this material does not scuttle the eternal torment position, it would seem to deal a fatal blow to the argument that that the eternal torment position can gain its force from the "forever means forever" reasoning.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I reiterate...

Those who deny the existance of an eternal hell and eternal torment therein, deny the very words of Jesus Christ Himself.

An old proverb says 'He who plays with fire is going to get burnt.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ himself says

quote:
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Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is an interesting but much needed twist of Matt 10 that might be considered by those who can not let the text speak as it does about "destroying" both body and soul in hell.


quote:
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"DHK10:28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell but would never do such a thing. Just think about the fact that HE COULD if He really really wanted to."

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[Andre]

Originally posted by DHK:
Death never means perishing. It always means separation. There are various types of death or separation spoken of in the Bible.
.
.
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Thirdly there is eternal death pictured in the verse you quoted--Romans 6:23

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Again death is separation.
Paul is drawing a comparison. The latter part of the verse he says, "the gift of God is eternal life..." Eternal life is set in contrast to "eternal death." Though the adjective "eternal" is not there it is implied. Eternal death is contrasted to eternal life. Paul speaks of eternal separation from God. That is death. Eternal death is being separated from God for all eternity in Hell (ultimately the Lake of Fire) forever and ever. Death (separation from God) will never end. Death in the Bible always means separation.

Hello DHK: As per a previous post, I now respond to your third point about "death means separation"

You assert that the word adjective "eternal" should qualify the word "death", but the rest of your post does not support that assertion. I re-ead all of Romans 6 and could see no particular reason to believe that Paul's references to "death" required or even suggested a "death = separation" interpretation. They seem to read sensibly with a "death = extinction" interpretation as well. To avoid hypocrisy, I will say that to claim my previous sentence as an argument, I would need to provide some non-question-begging support for it. But I have never claimed this, whereas you have claimed that "death=separation".

My point about what you are saying has more to do with "technical" matters concerning what constitutes a fair and sound argument, than with the particular subject matter.

You say "Paul speaks of eternal separation from God. That is death. Eternal death is being separated from God for all eternity in Hell (ultimately the Lake of Fire) forever and ever". However, this is merely a re-assertion of your thesis, not an argument for it. You might be right in your view, but you need to argue for it, not simply state it.

You also state "Eternal death is contrasted to eternal life." However, this claim rests critically on your inference about the "implied" qualification to death. Maybe there is such a implication, but it needs to be argued for. Even if such an argument were forthcoming, you would still need to argue for the proposition that "eternal death" is to taken to mean "eternal conscious existence" and not "good old-fashioned non-existence which lasts forever".

By the way, if one tries to argue that the contrast in the verse is more "structurally balanced" in respect to the quantity "time" if we add in "eternal" to qualify the word "death", I would agree. But this is not relevant. Many legitimate contrasts can be made that do not require such "balance". I can say "the penalty for failing my university entrance exams is 0 years of university education, while the result of passing is 4 years of education".

 

[Robert J Hutton]

It should be stated that eastern religions that hold to re-incarnation often believe that the ultimate goal is Nirvana. If you teach such people that a refusal to accept Christ means annihilation then you simply confirm them in their error because eternal "nothingness" is what they are aiming for.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

 

[Andre]

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
It should be stated that eastern religions that hold to re-incarnation often believe that the ultimate goal is Nirvana. If you teach such people that a refusal to accept Christ means annihilation then you simply confirm them in their error because eternal "nothingness" is what they are aiming for.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

Fair enough, but this is by no means an argument against the annihilationist position. To claim that it is would be like claiming that Christians should not promote the doctrine of eternal torment since followers of some religion "X" (which is not Christianity, but also has the doctrine of eternal torment) will take it as a confirmation of the correctness of religion X.

 

[wopik]

http://dialogue.adventist.org/articles/10_3_bacchiocchi_e.htm --- Hell: Eternal torment or annihilation?

by Samuele Bacchiocchi


--------------------------------


http://www.abcog.org/nh/hellfire.htm


Muslims, Jews, Christians and others predict a burning eternal hell for the wicked. Is this what the Bible teaches?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
It should be stated that eastern religions that hold to re-incarnation often believe that the ultimate goal is Nirvana. If you teach such people that a refusal to accept Christ means annihilation then you simply confirm them in their error because eternal "nothingness" is what they are aiming for.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

And some Budhist monks light themselves on fire. That is not an argument for denying that the Lake of Fire really does burn!

The concept of "destroy" that Christ promotes in Matt 10 may indeed fit someone's broken view of "what would be good to have happen to them in hell fire once the torment ends" - but it is clear in scripture that God's "destroying both body and soul in hell fire" was not meant as a "positive".

I know of very few that would call that "a good end".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by DHK:
Death never means perishing. It always means separation. There are various types of death or separation spoken of in the Bible.

There is a lot in scripture about "being absent" and in fact "separated" that is not dead.

"The Lord be between me and thee while we are absent one from another"

Paul says "though absent in body yet present in spirit" speaking of judging in church discipline.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

#1. I is preposterous to even think that a spirit can be annihilated. The spirit lives on forever. This is what the Bible teaches.
#2. If the spirit of man did not live on forever Christ's death would be all in vain. Why would Christ come into the world suffer the ridicule he did while alive, suffer the torment on the cross, shed his blood when he didn't have to, pay that horrible price that he did to make an atonement for our sins. Why? To keep us from the torment of everlasting punishment of Hell. The spirit would otherwise be eternally damned to Hell. He died that we might go to Heaven to live with him eternally, and contrariwise not be separated from him eternally in hell.
#3. God is a just God. By logic if there is an eternal life, there must indeed be an eternal death, that is eternal separation from God, eternal torment, eternal punishment. God is just.
#4. The whole concept of "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die," is more appealing to the natural man than Christianity, so I ask you again, Why did Christ die. It is more appealing to me to take the former philosophy in this world rather than have to face Christ at the judgement seat of Christ even as a Christian.
Paul wrote: "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men."
DHK

 

[Andre]

Originally posted by DHK:
#1. I is preposterous to even think that a spirit can be annihilated. The spirit lives on forever. This is what the Bible teaches.

Clear question-begging - mere assertion (delivered dismissively)

Originally posted by DHK:

#2. If the spirit of man did not live on forever Christ's death would be all in vain. Why would Christ come into the world suffer the ridicule he did while alive, suffer the torment on the cross, shed his blood when he didn't have to, pay that horrible price that he did to make an atonement for our sins. Why? To keep us from the torment of everlasting punishment of Hell. The spirit would otherwise be eternally damned to Hell. He died that we might go to Heaven to live with him eternally, and contrariwise not be separated from him eternally in hell..

This material presumes the absence of an annihilationist position for which Jesus' torment accomplishes something. Belief in time-limited punishment followed by annihilation is still something that a loving God would wish us to avoid. Under such an annihilation scenario, Jesus' death would accomplish something. This material presumes that the only human fate for which Jesus' death would accomplish anything is a fate of eternal torment

Originally posted by DHK:

#3. God is a just God. By logic if there is an eternal life, there must indeed be an eternal death, that is eternal separation from God, eternal torment, eternal punishment. God is just.

What formal system of logic demands this? Logic deals with general principles that can be abstracted from all real world circumstances (e.g. if A causes B, and B causes C, then A causes C). There is no more of a grounding of the eternal torment position in a system of logic than is there logical grounding for the position that "since there exist white marbles, there must exist black marbles".

Originally posted by DHK:

#4. The whole concept of "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die," is more appealing to the natural man than Christianity, so I ask you again, Why did Christ die. It is more appealing to me to take the former philosophy in this world rather than have to face Christ at the judgement seat of Christ even as a Christian.
Paul wrote: "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.".

Again, this material omits the possibility of a time-limited period of punishment followed by annihilation. Such a fate would also serve as a deterrent against the "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die" philosophy.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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Originally posted by DHK:
#1. I is preposterous to even think that a spirit can be annihilated. The spirit lives on forever. This is what the Bible teaches.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Bible text that actually "said that" would have been good just then.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DHK:

#2. If the spirit of man did not live on forever Christ's death would be all in vain. Why would Christ come into the world suffer the ridicule he did while alive, suffer the torment on the cross, shed his blood when he didn't have to, pay that horrible price that he did to make an atonement for our sins. Why? To keep us from the torment of everlasting punishment of Hell. The spirit would otherwise be eternally damned to Hell. He died that we might go to Heaven to live with him eternally, and contrariwise not be separated from him eternally in hell..
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Argument based on the void of what scripture does not say!

In fact - based on pure speculation "alone".

In 1Cor 15 we are told that we are mortal (as if we did not know that already) and that it is only at the "First resurrection" the resurrection of the righteous taken to be in heaven with Christ - that "this mortal puts on immortality".

The idea that Christ would ONLY need to die if we were already immortal and already had no possibility of dying - is a self-conflicted statement impossible to present in a cogent argument!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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Originally posted by DHK:

#3. God is a just God. By logic if there is an eternal life, there must indeed be an eternal death, --------------------------------

Finally something that makes sense and we can agree with.

What does NOT make sense is the fact that by "eternal death" you REALLY mean "Eternal LIFE NEVER DYING because you CAN NOT die - staying alive and highly inconvenienced".

And "that" is why your argument is failing.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DHK:

#4. The whole concept of "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die," is more appealing to the natural man than Christianity, so I ask you again, Why did Christ die. It is more appealing to me to take the former philosophy in this world rather than have to face Christ at the judgement seat of Christ even as a Christian.
Paul wrote: "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nothing in the quote you give - supports the argument you are trying to make.

Your argument is that NO torment is "bad" or "undesirable" if it does not continue for all of eternity applied to an IMMORTAL being.

By contrast EVEN TODAY we fully recognize gross monsterous acts of torture lasting for mere days and weeks that every human on the planet shudders to discover practiced by one human against another. NEVER are those gross crimes against humanity called "no big deal as long as it does not last for zillions of years".

Imagine a Teen in hell suffering for hundreds of years because they "Failed to accept Christ".

In Rev 14:10 we are told that you do not get to go "party" while your loved one writhes in the torment of the flames. RATHER they are tormented in the full "PRESENCE of the LAMB AND of His Holy ones"!!

Even Johnathan Edwards admits that this takes place IN the presence of the saints!!

Since you are trying to make an argument from common sense - then fine - I will join in -- How many years DID you expect to stand their while your precious child screems in agony of flames??

On BOTH the issue of common sense AND Bible support the words of Christ in MAtt 10 "DESTROY both body AND soul In hell fire" make perfect sense!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Boanerges]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DHK:
#1. I is preposterous to even think that a spirit can be annihilated. The spirit lives on forever. This is what the Bible teaches.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Bible text that actually "said that" would have been good just then.

You know Bob, you never did give me an explanation on the owlam thing, but here goes again:

Ecclesiastes 12
5 also they shall be afraid of a high place, and terrors in the way; and the almond tree shall blossom, and the locust makes himself a burden; and desire breaks, because man goes to his eternal home, and the mourners go about in the street;
6 while the silver cord is not yet loosed, or the golden bowl is crushed, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern;
7 then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

Acts 7
59 And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

I did respond to the Eccl 12 point -

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3603/14.html#000197

Here it is again --

quote:
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Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Job 32:8 But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

There is one verse that shows man does indeed have an immaterial spirit.


quote:
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Ec 12:7 says the spirit returns to God at death.
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The N.T. says there are three parts to man: spirit, soul, and body (1Th 5:23). Jesus dismissed His spirit from His body when He died on the cross (Lu 23:46). The Christian is to be holy in body and in spirit (1Co 7:34; 2Co 7:1). Death is separation of the spirit from the body (Jas 2:26).
Way of Life Encyclopedia [/QB]
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Agreed.

But notice that in Eccl 12:7 the spirit of both the wicked and the righteous "goes back to God who gave it" -- it is without qualification.

This works because of the 1Thess 4 (and 1Cor 11 and 1Cor 15 and John 11 and ...) fact that the dead are those who are "asleep" as the text in those cases points out.