Bob wrote:
Though the fire the burned Soddom is said to be eternal in Jude - it is not "Still burning".
The final disposition of sinners is "both body AND soul DESTROYED in the fires of hell" Matt 10:28.
You seem to think you have a way to "trick God" out of that.
"'Detroyed' both Body AND Soul in hell fire. How final! How "eternal" is that utter and complete destruction Eh?"
*******
eloidalmanutha:
For reference:
Matt 10:28
And you should not fear the ones killing the body, but not being able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him being able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.
Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.
My opinion
Destruction of soul and body in hell would mean life outside of God and without the possibility of redemption, not annihilation. Destruction/destroy does not mean zero existence. Those who have died, such as from Sodom and Gomorrah, are burning in fire as per Jude since God sent down fire to consume the city. The people do not exist physically on earth, were destroyed/died, but "exist" in a consuming fire that does not "destroy" in hell presently. They will be "resurrected" to be judged and returned to the fires of hell, along with satan and his minions for all of eternity.
Destroy in Hebrew [#7843] means:
to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt, be injured, be ruined, be rotted, to pervert, corrupt, deal corruptly (morally)
Destroy in Greek [#622] as used in Matt 10:28
to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless,
metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell, to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed, to lose
Perhaps the insistence that hell is a "physical" fire with properties such as we understand them, is not the fire of Heaven.
God is a Consuming Fire - but obviously He does not "burn up". He refers to His Word as being refined by Fire seven times, yet His Word is Forever, Eternal.
Our works will be consumed by fire, yet something remains - intent and motive of the heart. Not everything is "consumed".
Other "fire" from Heaven would be what appeared to be tongues of fire on the disciples at Pentecost - no "fuel", not "consuming" but as a sign that the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell all true believers.
Isaiah, when He saw the Lord on His Throne said "woe is me, for I am cut off, a man of unclean lips". The angel took a live coal and touched his lips and told him his iniquity was taken away. Isaiah was neither burned nor scorched nor consumed, but was touched by Heavenly fire, yet his sin was "consumed".
When Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden, a flaming sword guarded the Tree of Life - it was "Heavenly fire" that did not consume, but could have killed/destroyed life.
Ezekiel tells us that satan walked the up and down in the middle of stones of fire before he was cast out of Heaven. Yet he was not consumed or destroyed. The Heavenly fire he walked through would be his eternal destiny as the fire of judgment - eternal because it is the fire of Heaven - without beginning, without end.
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were thrown into what appeared to be an "earthly fire" - Jesus walked with them in this "fire from Heaven". It did not consume them, nor did it scorch or burn them.
One of the plagues on Egypt was a fire mixed with hail. Heavenly fire.
The Israelites were led by a pillar of Fire. Fire from Heaven.
God descended on Mt Sinai in a Fire, a Consuming Fire that did not consume the mountain.
Elijah called down fire from Heaven and it consumed wood, stone, and water instantly. It consumed physical properties on this occasion yet, when The Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in a burning bush. The bush was not consumed or burned up.
The rich man was tormented in "this flame" - it did not consume him - it is the fire of judgment, not an earthly fire.
The second death is to live in eternal fire - the fire of judgment.
If God says that eternal torment is burning in the fires of hell, it is forever without end. When life on earth is destroyed or "consumed" - there is no remaining opportunity to be reborn of Spirit and Water = Redemption/Salvation - time is up.
I really think we have no comprehension of the kind of fire that is eternal and consuming without being consumed.
Last, but not least, I was rather surprised to see the 2 Peter 3:7-12 text used in support of a "destroying, consuming" fire, as if that should be connected with hell/annihilation. Verse 7, certainly, but not 8-12 - that passage refers to the destruction of the earth and heavens as we know them, to be replaced by a "new Heaven and a new earth" - fire from Heaven to make all things new. The earth remains, it does not disintegrate - it is "consumed by fire", but it's not consumed/annihilated - it is made new by fire.
The Fire of Heaven - it can refine and it can burn forever in torment.
Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
ps: people in hell hate God, don't want God, and hate themselves - the abhorance of their actions will be a stench in their nostrils as it is to God's. Eternal torment is the punishment for rejecting God. Our thoughts, motives, intents in Heaven will be to worship God, not be concerned about those in hell. That is part of suffering in the here and now and the grief that will be wiped away when we see Him face to face.
[ February 05, 2006, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: eloidalmanutha ]
