Is hell-fire preaching good or bad?

[Apreacher4Him]

Amen

Amen...
A simple cursory view of a Strong's concordance will make it very clear what the whole counsel of God would be on this matter.... (more on that later)

Furthermore, no need to compromise on your position Bob Ryan - as if you feel some sense of moral obligation to present "both sides of the argument" as it were -- you were 100% Biblically correct on your firsts posts.

The reality of the need (of preaching on Hell - AND sinners unalterable suffering and BROAD WAY of destruction to that place if they repent not for their sin and MANY there be that find it) is not diminished by the fact that some corrupt it and will never be anything else but good and true Bible preaching.

That is particulary true when even when attempting to say that Bible truth can be presented with an improper attitude (which does not make it untrue mind you), you use a poor illustration. Furthermore, ANY doctrine can be preached with an "improper attitude" and therefore the doctrine is not to be attacked by the cynical people with itching ears who throw stones at what they do not want to hear because it is "negative".... WELL, "H-E-L-L" is a very NEGATIVE PLACE - FOREVER - it is hard to warn people about it "too much".... lol

Which brings me full circle... Is "H-e-a-v-e-n" a real place to you? Do you feel "encouraged" when you hear preaching on it? Would a sinner feel "fearful" if he hears biblical preaching on "H-e-l-l"? Are both real places?
Why should one preach on the blessings of Hell and not the Torments of Hell...
Why should one preach on the blessings and peace of Heaven and not the Torments and Hopelessness of Hell
Is not the blessings of Heaven meant to be an encouragement to seek God - or is it some stoic, unmotivating place? Well, then What about the mention of "Hell"
in scripture? Is it just some stoic, unmotivating place? On the contrary.

And, see when you talk of it as a "sinners in the hands of an angry God" type attitude, the whole argument swings again to the need to preach that Hell is an awful and unavoidable place of torment for sinners - some saving by fear - as it says in Jude - For, God is angry at the wicked every day - and all that sinners have to do to go to Hell and burn forever and ever - is die - and "sinners in the hands of an angry God" just happened to be THE SERMON that helped stir America's "Great Awakening" -

The "Great Awakening" that was the Revival that stirred america towards God just ONE generation before our nation's REVOLUTIONARY WAR! Amen! and Amen!

Thus, the children that grew up to lead our country through our revolution and to established us as a nation on biblical principles were brought up under the very Spiritual influence of the Revival that the preacher of "sinners in the hands of an angry God" helped stir! - Jonathon Edwards ....

Who by the way was the FIRST choice by the founders of Princeton University (practically a seminary in those days) to be its first president! I would say he knew what He was preaching - And was he snorting mad!? Nay, it is a matter of record that Jonathon Edwards could barely see and simply read his manuscript while men griped the pews white knuckled begging God to forgive them! He only occasionally stoped reading to look over his pages at the congregation that had revival and conversions that stired the land!

WELL, "H-E-L-L" is a very NEGATIVE PLACE - FOREVER - it is hard to warn people about it "too much".... Never! God Forbid ... Simply look at a Strong's Concordance... I like preaching on Heaven... I like preaching on Hell . . . It is called preaching the whole counsel of God... And let the preaching of Hell sound like a Negative! Is yelling at a person to flee a burning building to convey a negative!
Yes...

One look at a strong's concordance shows that there are more references to Hell, than to Heaven, More references to sin, than to righteousness, More references to what destination to flee, than what destination to seek, More references to the result of the BROAD WAY, than to the results of the narrow... Hell is mentioned much more than Heaven... All we need to do is read our Bibles and know that the Rich man in Luke 16 would be the FIRST person to vote for Hell fire and damnation preaching! No person in Heaven will ever wish that He had said less about Hell!
Although I fear that MANY IN HEAVEN - WILL WISH that they had said more!

God help us to say MORE about Hell without apology!

 

[LeBuick]

I agree APreacher, I'd hate to see anyone end up there and say I didn't warn um.

 

[BobRyan]

warning people of the wrath to come is not hell-fire and brimstone preaching.

warning people of the wrath to come (along with the law) is preaching the key to salvation.

Agreed. But in Rev 20 and in Rev 14:10 it is composed of "hell-fire and brimstone".

 

[Claudia_T]

Preaching Hellfire and Damnation

I think it depends alot on the person and where he is at spiritually at the time, after all the Bible says to use compassion with some and to use fear with others:

Jude 1:
22: And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Only the Holy Spirit knows where exactly a person is at in his spiritual walk with God and so it may be that at the time, God would inspire someone to use whichever approach was necessary for that particular person at that particular time.

Think of children. Sometimes they need love and inducements, other times they need the fear of punishment.

It's not like it is and either/or thing.

And that is why the Bible itself uses both compassion and fear.

Rom:2:4: the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance...

It was the love and mercy of God that gave the Prodigal Son courage to come back home but initially it was having to realize that all his so called "friends" really didnt care about him and that he was there sitting in the mire or the pig pen.

The Roman Catholic Church used alot of Hellfire and Brimstone to get people to do things... then Martin Luther had to come along and tell everyone about the mercy and free grace of God.

Although I also think of the warnings in Revelation 14:6-12 concerning the Mark of the Beast. The most dire warnings are given to mankind there, threatenings of the wrath of God unmixed with mercy. So sometimes you just need that.

Its a shame though when lots of Churches feel they must continually threaten with the wrath of God in order to keep people going to Church, etc... I regard that as nearly abusive. I once knew a man who was nearly driven to insanity because of having to continually hear about the threatenings of Hell.

Shouldn't the beauty of the character of God be enough to cause someone to want to forsake his evil ways? It nearly seems like reverse selfishness to have to get someone to do something just out of fear. What's the difference between sinning and trying to get to Heaven because you are scared of Hell? Both things are coming out of self-centeredness aren't they?

The very commandments of Jesus are to love God with all your heart and soul and your neighbor as yourself. That's supposed to be the motivating factor in serving God. Not because you are scared to do anything else.

Claudia

 

[BobRyan]

In general it depends on whether you are Calvinist or Arminian --

For 4 and 5 point Calvinists - it is general bad to speak of hell fire since their insistance on a totally arbitrary and capricious God who does not actually "so love the world" -- combined with their eternal roasting in hell idea - serves to drive many away from the "monster deity" that they depict.

For Arminians it is not so negative - and can actually be a tool for bringing people TO the God who "So loved the WORLD" not willing for ANY to PERISH.

Illustration to follow -- starting with the ARMINIAN future scenario.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Classic Arminian Future Scenario​

When you go to the Lord and cry out "Oh my great God and Savior - couldn't you have done Something to spare my precious daughter from the fires of the 2nd death?"

By the doctrines of grace as taught in the Arminian model - ... God may well reply with the words that Arminianism so “expects to hear”

"Why YES my child I loved them with an infinite love as Their tender Heavenly Father JUST as I loved you. I suffered the torments of the second death suffering for EACH and every one of THEIR sins JUST as I did for each and every one of yours!

I drew them to my heart of infinite love JUST as I drew you. I sent WAVE after WAVE of invitation, heart wrenching plea after plea - BUT In all this I did not force myself on them - JUST as I did not force myself on YOU.

”YES I could have FORCED both YOU and your child” to accept my Grace - but instead I Sovereignly Chose to Draw you both to Me and to Give you BOTH the ABILITY to see the light, to CHOOSE life or to CHOOSE your own selfish will. Fully enabled to choose. No trick language, no marketing gimmicks!

So when YOU CHOSE against me - I CAME back with even stronger ties of love and compassion - ENABLING your choice of LIFE JUST as I did with your precious child. Even so when your child refused my Love and eternal salvation I came back also to THEM with wave after wave of mercy and conviction and “Drawing”.

In the end - you finally accepted repentance and salvation but your precious child - OUR precious child - MY precious child -- chose to stand firm on "NO".

My heart of infinite love is broken over that - but I also Sovereignly CHOOSE to enable my children to CHOOSE even if it is to reject my lavish gift of love that suffered fully in their behalf!

[/quote]

Oh what wonderful Grace! What unbiased impartial Love! What sacrifice lavished upon both the saved AND the Lost!


Of course the Calvinist may say of the Arminian God that we see pictured here "OH how TERRIBLE! How AWFUL" that God would "ALLOW selfless concern for our lost children EVEN for a moment once we are in heaven" (as some have said)... or that "God would LOVE our lost children" (As others have said) -- But I know that "not many" will do so - even among Calvinists because the comparison is obvious - blatant and clear.


[/quote]



===========================================================
But some Calvinist could “really” think that the Arminian idea of “God who so loved the WORLD” (as described above is) in fact an “awful” idea.

====================

Calvinist posts to that effect will be in no short supply as (instead of addressing each of the salient points listed above) – they repeat Calvinism as IF that were the Arminian view stated above.

In Calvinism "God could have loved and died for and saved the finally lost but chose not to" -- In the Arminian system this is not the case at all. "HOW I WANTED to save your children but YOU would not" Matt 23.


Pastor Larry – poste April 28, 2003 11:51 PM Thread Title: Christ was Arminian?

As I say, your conception of God is no better because you have a God who could have saved that little girl but chose not to. Instead, he blames this weak and helpless little child for something that he could have changed.[/quote]

 

[Apreacher4Him]

Lest I digress...

Good preaching Bob R....

And also there was another post that seemed to be Double minded:

For example:

Good preaching

I think it depends alot on the person and where he is at spiritually at the time, after all the Bible says to use compassion with some and to use fear with others:

Jude 1:
22: And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Only the Holy Spirit knows where exactly a person is at in his spiritual walk with God and so it may be that at the time, God would inspire someone to use whichever approach was necessary for that particular person at that particular time.

Think of children. Sometimes they need love and inducements, other times they need the fear of punishment.

It's not like it is and either/or thing.

And that is why the Bible itself uses both compassion and fear.

Rom:2:4: the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance...

It was the love and mercy of God that gave the Prodigal Son courage to come back home but initially it was having to realize that all his so called "friends" really didnt care about him and that he was there sitting in the mire or the pig pen.


Thus, the point being that Hell fire and Brimstone preaching is not only - in - the -
Bible - But as the - whole - counsel - of - God - Necessary to preach, and preach hard and many, many cases -- away with this thought of "not offending" or "scaring people" - there is only ONE thing in the universe that ought to scare people MORE than Hell and that is the God that will put them there if they do not repent! It was NOT IN VAIN that Christ said "Except ye repent ye shall ALL LIKEWISE PERISH" - and kid not yourselves that means perish in the flames of a fiery Hell forever and ever and ever, in tears, hate, and pain without end!!!


Miss Led preaching:

The Roman Catholic Church used alot of Hellfire and Brimstone to get people to do things... then Martin Luther had to come along and tell everyone about the mercy and free grace of God.

[Huh, as if Martin Luther did not cry out to people that there was a devil to fear and a Hell to shun? God forbid. -- That's a strawman and makes not for good exegesis or preaching to a lost and dying world...]

Although I also think of the warnings in Revelation 14:6-12 concerning the Mark of the Beast. The most dire warnings are given to mankind there, threatenings of the wrath of God unmixed with mercy. So sometimes you just need that.

[So lets leave it at that]

Its a shame though when lots of Churches feel they must continually threaten with the wrath of God in order to keep people going to Church, etc... I regard that as nearly abusive.

[Come now... let us reason together "abusive"??? Next you'll be telling me that
spanking your kids is wrong because we do not want to damage their fragile
"ego self" - That is the height of selfishness and lack of love when we will not discipline our children or tell people that there is an authority of God's Holiness that if they do not repent they shall feel His wrath ... does it not say that parents who discipline their children shall "deliver their souls from Hell"? -- It is the height of selfishness not to warn of Hell for fear of reprisal - if that man went insane then he obviously missed the mark -- In Revelation, the VERY FIRST person it says will be cast into Hell is the "fearful" and then the "unbelieving" - God is to be feared because He alone forgives... the Scriptures teach "Because there is forgiveness with thee we FEAR thee"]

I once knew a man who was nearly driven to insanity because of having to continually hear about the threatenings of Hell.

[with all due respect I will let my above comments stand... It may be hard for you to believe, but I mean to be constructive, but when the whole counsel of God becomes slandered with words such as "abuse" no matter how much you try to qualify, such is a mistake]

Shouldn't the beauty of the character of God be enough to cause someone to want to forsake his evil ways?

[If men were perfect and didn't need to "forsake his evil ways" then maybe, lol...
But, ... since we aren't . . . Hence the need, and hence the Hell they are destined for such is not the case - understood?]

It nearly seems like reverse selfishness to have to get someone to do something just out of fear. What's the difference between sinning and trying to get to Heaven because you are scared of Hell? Both things are coming out of self-centeredness aren't they?

[No sinning and fearing Hell are nothing alike.... Before one fears Hell they must first know that they are a sinner and thus deserving of Hell - Hence the most positive influence of discipline of children... that their soul will understand its sinfulness before God and need to surrender to divine authority - for they have withstood correction of their sins for violating earthly authority they do not need to be taught that they are a sinner - they already know - they simply must respond to God's free gift because of their sin . . . OR ELSE they will go to HELL which is where sinners will go.... If sinners went to Heaven (or even were finally anihilated and removed from existence as some claim) perhaps some would not
feel the need to be forgiven... Yes, there are many motivations in the Scriptures, but if fear .... reasonable fear . . . needed fear . . . moves them . . . That is why God has revealed Hell in the Scriptures!! Infact, in all the universe, there is only one thing more fearful in all the universe than Hell. . . why would not sinners fear?
What are men to fear besides Hell and God? if not Hell and God?]


The very commandments of Jesus are to love God with all your heart and soul and your neighbor as yourself. That's supposed to be the motivating factor in serving God. Not because you are scared to do anything else.

[That is a false dichotomy... There is not one Christian in the whole world from the beginning of the Church . . .who is so perfect that he is ONLY MOTIVATED BY LOVE ... lol ... Much less a sinner still yet in their tresspasses and sins in need of forgiveness and as of yet with no spiritual life in them!!
Love and Fear as motivations go hand in hand....
By the way, so does the motivations of REWARD and DUTY....
Now are you to tell me that we should not preach that "no cup of water given in His name shall not lose its reward" because it might make people serve God because of a divine bribe? Come now let us reason together...

If the lost does not fear God and the guilty and punishment of their sin . . . they will very hardly understand the Love of God.... The Scriptures say clearly . . . He that hath been forgiven much loveth much... and when the unjust steward was
kept from PRISON and yet cast his servant in prison ... such was a wicked deed...

God bless

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed the lost must be warned. As God said to Ezek - if they are not "I will require their blood at your hands". But if you warn them of the wrath to come - you have delivered yourself.

God said of HIS shepherds "I will require MY sheep at their hands" - He will not wink at those who "preach peace and safety" When God said "there is no peace" because it is time to warn the lost to flee destruction to come.

How many are simply tickling the ears of the lost telling them there is nothing to fear.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[LeBuick]

Agreed the lost must be warned. As God said to Ezek - if they are not "I will require their blood at your hands". But if you warn them of the wrath to come - you have delivered yourself.

God said of HIS shepherds "I will require MY sheep at their hands" - He will not wink at those who "preach peace and safety" When God said "there is no peace" because it is time to warn the lost to flee destruction to come.

How many are simply tickling the ears of the lost telling them there is nothing to fear.

In Christ,

Bob

Preach on my Brother!

 

[BobRyan]

That icon of yours is a riot! What is it??

 

[LeBuick]

That icon of yours is a riot! What is it??

It was a cat having a bad hair day. Someone commented on my Snoopy being stolen so I switched up. Now I got old Al going, I think I'll stick with him for a while.

 

[BobRyan]

Al is a hoot as well. I was talking to my wife about him this week - the idea that he could have figure out that you can take the mass of ANY object (wood, straw, iron) and then FIND a single constant (say the number 10 for illustration - though obvious it is not 10) that always can be multiplied by the mass of the object - and will always show the amount of energy fully harnessed - bound - contained in that object -- is absolutly astounding!!

Some things are just too hard to believe and yet they are true!

I saw a math exercise one time where they took a nickle -- did the math and figure out that if you convert the mass of a nickle back to its "pure energy form" it would be enough energy to lift the empire state building a mile in the air.

 

[Brother Bob]

I thought someone else was using AL? I am sure I have seen this same picture on someone else's avatar.
Unless you used him earlier?

 

[LeBuick]

I thought someone else was using AL? I am sure I have seen this same picture on someone else's avatar.
Unless you used him earlier?

Naw, I guess I'll have to find another Al... How is this Al?

 

[Brother Bob]

Is that his face?

 

[LeBuick]

Is that his face?

ROFL... Hard to tell which end you're looking at?

 

[Brother Bob]

Yep........

 

[BobRyan]

Naw, I guess I'll have to find another Al... How is this Al?

Sharpton? Looks like Al Sharpton to me.

 

[LeBuick]

Sharpton? Looks like Al Sharpton to me.

yes Sir, that's Brother Sharpton. He was the only other Al I could find.

 

[mcdirector]

LeBuick -- before I went to bed, I thought about commenting on the fact that your tongue was sticking out. Now I'm up to find out that you've changed! Again! :tongue3:

I wouldn't want to sit under hellfire preaching all the time, but it is motivating from time to time as a reminder that I am to go and witness. Having said that, I can't see my pastor doing it in the traditional way -- he can say the words (and has), but he always seems so concerned for the flock and I don't think I've ever heard him raise his voice like some preachers.