Is hell full of forgiven people?

[doulous]

But it does a person no good unless he appropriates that sacrifice unto himself.

So the sinner must cooperate with God in order for salvation to be accomplished? If so, then you are making salvation of works. God cannot save without the cooperation of man. That cooperation is a work.

 

[doulous]

Sinful man does not go to hell for unbelief. Sinful man goes to hell for two reasons:

1. He is born at emnity with God (original sin).
2. He sins and is judged because of his sins.

Man is born an enemy of God (Rom. 5:14, 1 Cor. 15:22). Man is born under the dominion of Satan (Eph. 2:2, 2 Tim. 2:26). Man is incapable of understanding the things of God (1 Cor. 2:14). Man cannot understand these things because he is spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:12). All men, in their unregenerate state, are guilty of unbelief (Rom. 1:18-32).

If we are to say that people go to hell for unbelief, then we must be ready to say that people go to heaven because they believe. Therefore, whether it is heaven or hell, God's power is not sufficient to save without the involvement of man. We make salvation something to be earned. It no longer is because of grace. We emasculate Ephesians 2:4-9 which says:

Ephesians 2:4-9 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Using a plain-normative hermenutic we notice that the choice of man is nowhere illucidated in this passage. Who is the one who makes sinners alive together with Christ? God. Does God have assistance in this? No. Can man claim any part in salvation? No.

Man does not go to hell because of unbelief. Man does not believe because he is still in his sins and has not tasted of the grace and mercy of God.

 

[Brother Bob]

doulous;

So the sinner must cooperate with God in order for salvation to be accomplished? If so, then you are making salvation of works. God cannot save without the cooperation of man. That cooperation is a work.

It seems if a man breathes you call it works. I think you take Eph; too far. Please read the following scripture and see if the woman did anything on her own.


Mark, chapter 5
25": And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
"26": And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
"27": When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
"28": For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
"29": And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
"30": And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
"31": And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
"32": And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
"33": But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
"34": And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague
John, chapter 8

If we are to say that people go to hell for unbelief, then we must be ready to say that people go to heaven because they believe. Therefore, whether it is heaven or hell, God's power is not sufficient to save without the involvement of man. We make salvation something to be earned. It no longer is because of grace. We emasculate Ephesians 2:4-9 which says:

John
"24": I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

That is exactly what I believe and exactly what Jesus said in the above Scripture of John.

I believe most of what you say doulous but because the woman "believed" and pushed her way to the Lord did not give her life but life came from Jesus by His Grace through her faith of which He saw she had and said "thy faith hath made thee whole" and after seeing she had the faith He made her whole. He did it all, Salvation is of the Lord.

I wonder if He looks and sees who the "elect" is and redeems them. What would happen if an elect hath believed if he touched Jesus's garment he would be made whole, would you call that works? Well, He looked and saw where faith was.

Blessings,
BBob

 

[doulous]

Bob,

I am taking Ephesians 2 from a plain-nomartive approach. I am taking Col. 2 from a plain-normative approach. I have not see you wrestle with either text. You dismiss my interpretation but offer none of your own. Is it possible the text "means what it means"?

I have never denied that a person must excercise faith. The bible clearly teaches that is the case. But can a person excercise faith while still in their sins? No. Why? Because while they are in their sins they are incapable of understanding the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14). How then are they able to excercise faith? By the direct intervention of God through regeneration (Eph. 2:4-5).

 

[Gina B]

All sins are atoned for. Jesus tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2) and His sacrifice was once for all (Hebrews 10:12). Atonement is the settling of accounts with God. So it is true that no man goes to hell because of sin.

If a man is in hell, it is because of unbelief (John 3:16-18). Although he deserved death because of his sin, that death was taken by Jesus and the punishment is not paid twice.

HOWEVER, atonement and forgiveness are two different things. Forgiveness has to do with a personal relationship. If a person murders your mother, that person may be tried, found guilty, and spend the rest of his or her life in jail or be executed. That is legal atonement. It has nothing to do with the condition of your heart, however, and whether or not the murderer repented or whether or not you were ready to forgive.

So while all sin is atoned for by Jesus' work on the Cross, not all sin is forgiven and, in fact, there is one which CANNOT be forgiven -- although it has been atoned for.

All people who have ever lived have had enough of the truth presented to them, one way or another, in their lives, to choose to reject it or follow it (see Romans 1). Thus no man has an excuse. Those who reject the truth get all that is left -- the lie. Those who want and seek the truth are led by the Father to the Son, who refuses none.

If atonement were limited, then Christ did not taste death for every man and the writer to the Hebrews lied. If atonement were limited, then there would be insults to God left standing for eternity.

That doesn't make a lot of sense, as even if one is a believer, they must be purified of sin before they may stand before God. That was the reason for the existance of "Abraham's Bosom". They were believers, yet they could not enter into God's presence.

If one is going to take a free will view, the view still works (but in a more logical way) if you were to say that Christ's death accomplished atonement and forgiveness for all, but it is not applied to anyone until they accept it.

It would also make more sense to combat Calvinism by saying faith alone is not enough, that man must also make a conscious choice for God, because even the devils believe, but it isn't counted to them for righteousness. Even if one believes in God, it makes no difference if they do not repent of their sins and make the decision to live right.

If I was coming from your point of view, that is how I would present it. That would make more sense to me, and seems to meld more with scripture. Yes, no, maybe? :wavey:

 

[Gina B]

So the sinner must cooperate with God in order for salvation to be accomplished? If so, then you are making salvation of works. God cannot save without the cooperation of man. That cooperation is a work.

Please define a salvation of works. An analogy of it, using a normal everyday experience, would also be extremely helpful.

 

[Brother Bob]

doulous; You take Eph; 2 but what about Mark:5. You think the woman was already saved. I can find other Scriptures if this one is not good enough where someone did something while still a sinner.


Mark, chapter 5
25": And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
"26": And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
"27": When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
"28": For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

Gina;
Amen and very well put.

 

[doulous]

doulous; You take Eph; 2 but what about Mark:5. You think the woman was already saved. I can find other Scriptures if this one is not good enough where someone did something while still a sinner.


Mark, chapter 5
25": And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
"26": And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
"27": When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
"28": For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

Gina;
Amen and very well put.

Bob, you're missing my point. No one will come to the Son while still in their sins. The woman in Mark 5 is no exception. She came because she was called.

John 6:44 44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The word for "draws" means to drag. It does not mean to woo or to coax. If this woman came to Christ it is because the the Father "dragged" her to the Son. Did she exhibit the characteristics of a robot? No. Why not? Because God changes our nature so that our coming to Christ is done freely.

 

[Brother Bob]

doulous;
The word for "draws" means to drag. It does not mean to woo or to coax. If this woman came to Christ it is because the the Father "dragged" her to the Son. Did she exhibit the characteristics of a robot? No. Why not? Because God changes our nature so that our coming to Christ is done freely.

John, chapter 12
"32": And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You still did not answer the question whether she was still a sinner until she receive the virtue?

 

[doulous]

Please define a salvation of works. An analogy of it, using a normal everyday experience, would also be extremely helpful.

Gina, I'll give it a whirl.

Strictly speaking there is no such thing as a "salvation of works" since the result is no salvation at all.

The Roman Catholic Church is a perfect example of an advocate of works. The RCC teaches that each person is born with prevenient grace. This form of grace places everyone on the same playing field. It is what we do with the measure of grace given to us that determines our destiny. A good Catholic will receive all the sacraments (baptism, communion, confirmation, confession, last rites et. al). They will measure up to Rome's definition of a good Catholic. Their works bridge the gap between prevenient grace and the level of obedience necessary to earn heaven. In fact the RCC doctrine of purgatory is an after-life work by man in order to finally purge themselves of sin in order to gain eternal life. This is a final work of mankind that takes place after this mortal life. How would this play out in real life? Let's use a fictional character named "Nancy" to make our point.

Nancy is born into a Roman Catholic home. Her parents have her baptized soon after she is born. This brings her into the Roman Catholic community. When she enters grade school she begins to attend Catholic C.C.D. classes. When she is eight she makes her first holy communion. At thirteen she is confirmed and takes her stand as an adult within the Catholic church. Every week she attends confession where she is absolved from her sins and given a penance (a work) to perform in order to earn her forgiveness. She never eats meat during lent. She attends mass faithfully and never misses a holy day. When Nancy marries it is, of course, in the Roman Catholic Church. Her children will be raised the same way she was. Finally Nancy reaches the end of her life. As she is dying the priest gives her the rites of extreme unction. When her mortal life ends she expects to go to one of two places: heaven or purgatory. Unfortunately she will wake up in eternal torment.

Gina, this is an example of a Roman Catholic, but it could very well be a good protestant. There are plenty of protestants who believe they are coming to god on their own terms. The concept of mercy and grace is foreign to many protestants.

Gina, these are not exhaustive examples.

 

[doulous]

John, chapter 12
"32": And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You still did not answer the question whether she was still a sinner until she receive the virtue?

Bob, I'll tell you what. You deal with the passages that I first challenged you to exegete and then I will answer your question.

Fair deal?

 

[Brother Bob]

4: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6: And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

No problem doulous;
when we were dead in sins ( separated from God, does not mean they cannot not respond to God when it is not His will that any should perish. "come unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved.)


Romans, chapter 6
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin. (This is the believers and they are dead to sin does that mean they cannot sin? Sure they can sin but not a sin unto death such as adultery, murder, etc.)

(by grace ye are saved
6: And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

After through their faith and believing that Jesus was the Christ then they received Salvation by Grace and of course we sit in heavenly places.

(All the rest of the Scriptures you gave me fall into place by the answers I just gave you.)

Now, was the woman saved or not before she got the virtue?

 

[doulous]

Bob - I am speechless. Your exegesis was horrible. I am going to back out of this thread before I start pulling my hair out of my head.

And to answer your question, the woman was not saved until she placed her faith in Christ. No one can be saved without placing their faith in Christ. There is not one Calvinist worth his salt would teach otherwise. Of course we believe that no one will place their faith in Christ unless they have been called.

I'm done with this thread. I'll let you have the last word. **Insult removed**

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob - I am speechless. Your exegesis was horrible. I am going to back out of this thread before I start pulling my hair out of my head.

And to answer your question, the woman was not saved until she placed her faith in Christ. No one can be saved without placing their faith in Christ. There is not one Calvinist worth his salt would teach otherwise. Of course we believe that no one will place their faith in Christ unless they have been called.

I'm done with this thread. I'll let you have the last word. I need to regain my sanity.

Well doulous;(personal attack edited)
All you had to do was use Scriptures if you have them to answer me. If dead in sin say they don't know anything the dead to sin would say they don't know anything either.

Glad to hear you admit the woman had to have the virture to be saved for she had done some works to get to where the Lord was. You said none would come to the Lord except they are called and I agree but He said "come unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved, for I am God and besides me there is none other.
(personal attack edited)
I only used Scriptures on you and you say that will make you pull your hair out, not to worry for the very hairs on your head are numbered. Tell you what, I will pray for you.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Is hell full of forgiven people?

The answer is ....... NO.

 

[Brother Bob]

Amen IveyLeaguer ;

I will add another NO!!

 

[J.D.]

I have memorialized parts of this thread on my blog at www.arminiansayings.blogspot.com. I coudn't help myself, this one is too rich. I left off the names this time so I'm not so mean, am I?

 

[Brother Bob]

It one for the books alright J.D.

 

[Gina B]

I have memorialized parts of this thread on my blog at www.arminiansayings.blogspot.com. I coudn't help myself, this one is too rich. I left off the names this time so I'm not so mean, am I?

Yes, you are. Nobody's on here to have you do that to him. People post here because they learn, have fun posting, or want to discuss different beliefs and discuss their own.

When you take the discussion of a brother or sister in Christ and post it on another site for the purpose of mocking them, following it up with a degrading statement about that person, yes it is mean. It is not a Christian thing to do.
And if the policies of this board remain as they have been, it is also a violation of the copyrights of this board. And private ones. I noticed you provide no source for your quotes, no link to the board, no credit to the author, who has the right, btw, to say no you can't do that.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Aki]

God's standard for accepting a soul is perfect righteousness.

When Christ died on the cross to pay for sins, it took away the issue of sin.

HOWEVER, payment for sins does not mean being declared righteous by God the Father. thus, each soul is left wanting of righteousness, even if sins are already paid for, leaving it still on condemned.

what is needed therefore is justification, wherein God declares a soul righteous in his sight. justification comes by faith.

in short, Christ's death accomplishes payment for sins - for everyone, but it does not justify anybody. everyone who believes, however, is justified on the merit of faith, thus completing salvation.

so, is hell filled with forgiven people? i'd say it's full of souls whose sins are paid for, but were not declared rigtheous by God due to lack of faith.