Is Homosexuality Biological?

[Martin]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Martin, you are not accepting the answers that are given, what exactly are you looking for? we cannot say homosexuality is the result of a birth defect. We cannot place that abominable sin as being something God put on man.

==Most of the answers being given are not about the issue I raised. I raised the issue of influences. I was looking for a discussion of influences. That is why I keep challenging positions. It is not that I disagree. I agree homosexuality is a sin and those who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1Cor 6:9-10) and they will find their eternal home in the lake of fire (Rev 21:8). I agree on that. My point here was to have a discussion on influences.

Martin.

Martin.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Martin, they already burned in lust toward one another before God turned them over to it. That is not judgment. That is God saying, 'You want to live in sin and reject me, go ahead. But there will be consequences'.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Martin,

That is not clear to me. Neither was it clear to Job. Neither was it clear to Jesus with the blind man. You cannot blame all bad things on sin. That is not Biblical. As a matter of fact, it is heresy. Many Word of Faith heretics teach much the same thing.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Martin,

That is not clear to me. Neither was it clear to Job. Neither was it clear to Jesus with the blind man. You cannot blame all bad things on sin. That is not Biblical. As a matter of fact, it is heresy. Many Word of Faith heretics teach much the same thing.

Joseph Botwinick

==I am not blaming every bad thing on sin. I am talking about influences.

Martin.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Then please explain to me how you think it is clear that birth defects are a direct result of sin. And then, square that with what Jesus said about the Blind man.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The only influence that causes homosexuality is found in Ephesians 6. principalities and powers, spiritual wickedness in high places. No birth defect, God did not plant the thoughts or fleshly lust in their heads.

Jesus said if a man looks at a woman to lust after her in his heart, he has already committed adultery. The same would apply to homosexuality. All it takes is lusting to be branded as such.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Martin, they already burned in lust toward one another before God turned them over to it. That is not judgment. That is God saying, 'You want to live in sin and reject me, go ahead. But there will be consequences'.

==I think it is judgment. They wanted to reject God, they wanted to live in sin, so God turned them over to it. These people have been turned over to sin. It is a form of judgment. People who refuse to repent of homosexuality will, at some point, be turned over to it. They will cross the line of no turning back. They will reap what they sow. That is certainly judgment.

Martin.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Then please explain to me how you think it is clear that birth defects are a direct result of sin. And then, square that with what Jesus said about the Blind man.

Joseph Botwinick

==We are getting off the subject. However again I am not saying that all bad things are a result of sin. Nor am I saying that all birth defects are a result of personal sin (ie..the blind man sinned, his parents sinned, therefore he is blind). I am talking about "sin" in the general sense, ie...the fallen nature of man. Birth defects would not be a reality had mankind not fallen.

Martin.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

believe me, that is not judgment. judgment is when man stands before a Holy God and is clothed in his own righteousness and he hears the Words, 'Depart from me, ye that do work iniquity; I never knew you'

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Martin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Martin,

The sin nature affects your eternal destiny, not your genetics.

Joseph Botwinick

==I agree but can we limit its affects to the spiritual only? What about birth defects? Clearly these are the result of sin also?

Martin. </font>[/QUOTE]You did say that birth defects are the result of sin and the above post proves it to be so. What you are advocating in your argument is unBiblical and heresy.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Joseph Botwinick,

I agree. I think this question is trying to justify something that God has said is sin.

 

[Martin]

The only influence that causes homosexuality is found in Ephesians 6. principalities and powers, spiritual wickedness in high places.

==So you are saying that demonic forces don't or can't use social or mental factors to influence people to sin? If that is so then I can't agree. Certainly they can play some role. Thus I still have to stick with position number 2 (from my original post):

"2. No. It is a choice people make. However there maybe psychological and sociological factors that influence that choice."

Whether the factors come from demons who use mental or social influences to bring a person to sin, or whether it is just evil people, or our fallen world, or all three, there certainly seems to be some level of influences (sociological and psychological). However, as I said in my original post, I don't believe there are any biological factors.


Now I would add that I don't believe a true, born again Christian can be a homosexual (1Cor 6:9-10). These people have been turned over to their sin and its horrible consequences(Rom 1:26-32). God does not abandon His own children. Besides Christians cannot practice sin (1Jn 3:9-10).

No birth defect, God did not plant the thoughts or fleshly lust in their heads.

==I have never said that God planted those thoughts in their heads (Jms 1:13). Maybe you misunderstood my point (which could mean that I did not make it clear).

Have a nice night.

In Christ,
Martin.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Joseph Botwinick,

I agree. I think this question is trying to justify something that God has said is sin.

==Clearly you are not reading what I am saying. I think I have said clearly here in this thread, in other threads, in the past, and in the present that homosexuality is sin. There is no justifying the behavior. I was talking about influences. You are talking about the nature of the behavior (ie..sin). I have said from the start that this was not about that.

Martin.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Martin,

The sin nature affects your eternal destiny, not your genetics.

Joseph Botwinick

==I agree but can we limit its affects to the spiritual only? What about birth defects? Clearly these are the result of sin also?

Martin. </font>[/QUOTE]You did say that birth defects are the result of sin and the above post proves it to be so. What you are advocating in your argument is unBiblical and heresy.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]==What did I say?

I said, "these are the result of SIN also". I also said, "I agree that homosexuality is a product of the sin nature, as are birth defects". I did not say that birth defects are the result of personal sin (ie.. the person sinned thus...). When I say "these are the result of sin" I mean "sin" in general (ie...the result of the fall and man's sin). Your accusation thus has no foundation.

We are getting off the subject. However again I am not saying that all bad things are a result of sin. Nor am I saying that all birth defects are a result of personal sin (ie..the blind man sinned, his parents sinned, therefore he is blind). I am talking about "sin" in the general sense, ie...the fallen nature of man. Birth defects would not be a reality had mankind not fallen.


Martin.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

 

[Helen]

Joseph, you are chronically quick to accuse people who disagree with you of heresy. I wish you would stop that. (Never mind, he or someone else erased his accusation.)

Martin is asking a valid question and I don't think either of you are really paying attention to the question itself.

First of all, of course what we do is affected by the influences around us (or they wouldn't be called 'influences'!). Remember, train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it? Training, environment -- these are incredibly important in a person's life. One does not simply make a choice out of the blue: I think I will be a homosexual now. Or I think I will be a thief now. Things influence these choices. There are, one way or another, 'invitations' or temptations toward these areas. If not, then all who rebel against God would be homosexual, but they are not.

Is there a biological element involved? I don't know. And, quite frankly, neither do you! I do know this, however, that even if there is a biological element involved, it is not one which is overpowering but one which can be overcome when one chooses to follow Christ instead of one's own sin nature. The Holy Spirit gives each us of the the power to conquer whatever our own particular points of weakness were/are where sin is concerned. We were not all adulterers. Not all murderers. Not all homosexuals. Not all liars. Not all thieves.

We each had our own 'specialties' where sin was concerned! Whether or not there is a genetic component in any of these is not known. It's as simple as that.

But we do know that there are strong social and psychological influences which direct the sinner toward one or another 'speciality.' For instance, it has been documented past any shadow of a doubt that violence on television and other forms of entertainment engenders violence in kids. Is this added to a genetic predisposition to be violent? It may be, as not all kids who indulge or who are allowed to watch these things turn out violent.

Not every child who is homosexually abused becomes homosexual. But some do. Why the difference, assuming none of them are saved? We don't know.

Martin, if I have missed the boat on what you were trying to discuss here, please let me know.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen Joseph!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Helen:
Joseph, you are chronically quick to accuse people who disagree with you of heresy. I wish you would stop that.

Helen,

I am not concerned about what you wish. Teaching that sin causes birth defects and that homosexuality is genetic (ie: God made them that way) is unbiblical and heresy. I don't care if you like it or not. The truth remains the same.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Martin]

Martin, if I have missed the boat on what you were trying to discuss here, please let me know. [/QB]

==Helen, I agree with you. Thanks.

Martin.

 

[Helen]

One quick thing more: all of everything that is wrong with creation, including birth defects are the ultimate results of sin. Not a specific sin by a specific person involved, but sin as sin, starting with Adam.