Is Hope of Eternal Life Bound to Faith?

[steaver]

The truth is that Paul does not give us any reason why, but only states that they can.

1Ti 5:9Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,



WHY PAUL????


1Ti 5:11
......for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;

1Ti 5:12Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

THEY WILL MARRY ? THEY WILL WAX WANTON? THEY WILL CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH?

WHY? BECAUSE THE CHURCH WAS KIND ENOUGH TO PROVIDE ALL OF THEIR NEEDS? (vs 9)

SO DON"T DO THE PROVIDING FOR THE YOUNG CHRISTIAN WIDOWS BECAUSE THEY COULD END UP TURNING AGAINST CHRIST AND BE CONDEMNED TO HELL ????

I search for the truth MP. I don't just pluck verses out for personal preference.

While we are in Timothy why don't you tell me what this verse means.....

2Ti 2:15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

God bless! :jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: 1. Does one trust Timothy to admit into the membership of the church of Ephesus believers only?

HP: Good question. It is utterly impossible for one to accept another’s profession of faith except by faith. Paul could not look upon the heart. Of course, believing in the many passages that warn us all of turning aside from the faith and rejecting Christ, I believe it is totally possible for one to have a right relationship with God just as these young widows obvious had, yet wax wanton against Christ and cast aside ones first faith. Only one believing that might believe that free will only lasts for the mere instant ones chooses Christ and then disappears as fast as it came would believe otherwise.

DHK: 2. Did Paul trust Timothy in this matter?

HP: Sorry, I do not understand this question. Paul was simply warning Timothy and the Church about how to handle this matter.

DHK: 3. Paul was writing to Timothy about church matters which inherently speaks about believers, and not unbelievers, and therefore there is no reason to take the stance that these are unbelievers.

HP: I see that asd a false conclusion, nowhere supported by reason or Scripture. “Let the wheat grow with the tares” is the admonition and reality we all should know exists. Who would not accept the possibility of one turning from the faith, or of professing but never honestly being saved in the first place?(as those believing in OSAS would claim?) The Church as we know it has always been, and will always be in this world, a mix of those that in the end will make it in and those that will not. Certainly we often do address the assembly with the hope that all are right with God, but reality teaches us otherwise. You can rightfully assume many times that the words that are spoken are meant for believers, but what you cannot assume is that those actually addressed are believers due to the fact certain words were spoken in their hearing, being addressed as believers.

DHK: I trust that if Satan should turn you aside from the straight and narrow path, that some Godly person would come and direct you back to it. It could happen to anyone. If you don't think it could never happen to you, then you have a pride issue. Satan attacks everyone. He walks around as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. We are told to: Resist the devil. Obviously he is a dangerous force to be reckoned with.

HP: Indeed we all face the danger of the possibility of turning aside after Satan. None of us are exempt from the possibility. Preaching OSAS is no way to issue the warning. Wee in a battle for our souls as long as we are in this world. We should all take serious heed to the warnings lest we cast aside our faith and in doing so make shipwreck of our faith.

DHK: Some had already turned aside. It happens all the time. I have seen it too. Believers leave the church. They stop coming to church. They get caught up in the things of the world. They get backslidden in their lives. Do I automatically write them off as unsaved? No. Of course not.

HP: If one believes in OSAS I can see why not. They of necessity would have to remain as believers because they have no free will to do otherwise. No danger to warn them about. They are necessitated believers for life regardless of anything they could possibly do. Such a belief runs absolutely contrary to the many warnings in Scripture concerning making shipwreck of the faith, casting off ones faith to the end of eternal damnation. “He that endureth to the end shall be saved.” “Press towards the mark” was the testimony and admonition given to us by Paul. That is my steadfast purpose, to press on in obedience, enduring until the end with the help proffered by God. I cannot help but believe that is your goal as well. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: Good question. It is utterly impossible for one to accept another’s profession of faith except by faith. Paul could not look upon the heart. Of course, believing in the many passages that warn us all of turning aside from the faith and rejecting Christ, I believe it is totally possible for one to have a right relationship with God just as these young widows obvious had, yet wax wanton against Christ and cast aside ones first faith. Only one believing that might believe that free will only lasts for the mere instant ones chooses Christ and then disappears as fast as it came would believe otherwise.

In the early centuries, especially the first three, becoming a Christian was no small decision. False professions were rare.
I lived in an Islamic nation for some time. When a Muslim converted to Christianity he laid his very life on the line. He forsook everything: his material possessions, his family, even his place of employment. The insult of his conversion was to great for his family to bear. They would be the ones to search him out and attempt to kill him. He would have to go underground and hide. His very life would always be in danger. To become a Christian was the biggest decision a person could ever make in a Muslim land.

The same was true in the first centuries of Christianity. Not only were they disowned by their families, they were also persecuted by the government. Look how many Nero himself kiiled. Then a horrible persecution took place under Diocletian. Saul before he became Paul persecuted the church of God, as it is recorded, putting to death many. How many would make a false profession of faith only to be put to death for doing it? It doesn't make sense in that context to pretend to be a Christian knowing that you are going to burn at the stake, or be thrown to the lions. What fool what do that?

This was the first century when the spiritual gifts were still operable. Paul had the Biblical gift of tongues as he testifies to in 1Cor.14. I believe also that he had the gift of discernment, as did Timothy. It is doubtful that there were unbelievers in that congregation. That is too much to assume, especially when Paul addresses them as believers.

HP: I see that asd a false conclusion, nowhere supported by reason or Scripture. “Let the wheat grow with the tares” is the admonition and reality we all should know exists.

This is a parable about the kingdom of God. It is not applicable to the local church. You are taking Scripture out of context. The local church is composed solely of believers. If you are the pastor of your church do you readily admit J.W.'s, Mormons, Buddhists, and all unsaved that come knocking at your door?

Who would not accept the possibility of one turning from the faith, or of professing but never honestly being saved in the first place?(as those believing in OSAS would claim?)

If the outward claim of not being saved is made they are disciplined from the church. If a scandal is made by one supposedly turning from the faith they are disciplined by the church (1Cor.5:1-5).

The Church as we know it has always been, and will always be in this world, a mix of those that in the end will make it in and those that will not.

Our church is composed of baptized believers. I can assure you of that. I know each and every one of them. I am sorry that you belong to a church that has such a conglomeration of unsaved church. I recommend that you leave it and find one that believes the Bible.

Certainly we often do address the assembly with the hope that all are right with God, but reality teaches us otherwise. You can rightfully assume many times that the words that are spoken are meant for believers, but what you cannot assume is that those actually addressed are believers due to the fact certain words were spoken in their hearing, being addressed as believers.

That depends on your church, doesn't it. The church at Corinth was a very carnal church. Paul doesn't address any other church in this manner.

HP: Indeed we all face the danger of the possibility of turning aside after Satan. None of us are exempt from the possibility. Preaching OSAS is no way to issue the warning. Wee in a battle for our souls as long as we are in this world. We should all take serious heed to the warnings lest we cast aside our faith and in doing so make shipwreck of our faith.

If you equate making shipwreck of your faith with loss of salvation, then you have a serious flaw in your understanding of soteriology.

HP: If one believes in OSAS I can see why not. They of necessity would have to remain as believers because they have no free will to do otherwise. No danger to warn them about. They are necessitated believers for life regardless of anything they could possibly do. Such a belief runs absolutely contrary to the many warnings in Scripture concerning making shipwreck of the faith, casting off ones faith to the end of eternal damnation. “He that endureth to the end shall be saved.” “Press towards the mark” was the testimony and admonition given to us by Paul. That is my steadfast purpose, to press on in obedience, enduring until the end with the help proffered by God. I cannot help but believe that is your goal as well. :thumbs:

There is nothing in this passage about losing one's salvation. Don't read into Scripture something that is not there. That is what the cults do. There is nothing in this passage to even suggest eternal damnation. Why do you even suggest it. I would dare say that at times you yourself have turned aside after Satan. It is called sin. The told Peter that he had done so. Did Peter lose his salvation at that time? No. Of course not. You need to study more on salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If you equate making shipwreck of your faith with loss of salvation, then you have a serious flaw in your understanding of soteriology.

HP: Can we assume by your remarks above that you believe that salvation can exist apart from faith?

 

[DHK]

HP: Can we assume by your remarks above that you believe that salvation can exist apart from faith?

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

No. Paul uses a similar phrase for himself. Paul was never in doubt concerning his own salvation. He knew that his life was secure in Christ. "Being a castaway" was simply being of no more use in the service of the Lord because of an undisciplined spiritual life. It has nothing to do with salvation. That is the meaning in this passage.
It is ridiculous to equate every such similar passage to the loss of salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: It is ridiculous to equate every such similar passage to the loss of salvation.

HP: There we have it. Here is the bottom line argument in favor of OSAS. To believe otherwise is ‘ridiculous.’ Somehow that does not resonate with reason as being solid evidence, or to the statements in Scripture of “having damnation having cast off their first faith”, 'turning aside after Satan,' making 'shipwreck of the faith,' ending up with 'dead' faith.

If all these states can be said to exist at one in the same time with exercising faith, define for the list what faith is and what it means to have faith. It would seem to me that you deny a most clear matter of logic as it relates to faith. Logic demands that something cannot be and not be at the same time in the same sense. How is your position concerning faith not in clear opposition to this fundamental principle of reason and logic?

The other issue that seems strange to me is your insistence that man has a free will, yet when it comes to faith it is impossible once having faith for faith to cease to exist. At what point does man lose the ability to do something other than what he does, in this case exercise faith? Could it be that man does not have anything to do with the exercising of faith in the first place? How can the will be said to be free or have anything whatsoever to do with faith if one has no ability to alter ones standing by faith once having received it?

 

[trustitl]

The same was true in the first centuries of Christianity. Not only were they disowned by their families, they were also persecuted by the government. Look how many Nero himself kiiled. Then a horrible persecution took place under Diocletian. Saul before he became Paul persecuted the church of God, as it is recorded, putting to death many. How many would make a false profession of faith only to be put to death for doing it? It doesn't make sense in that context to pretend to be a Christian knowing that you are going to burn at the stake, or be thrown to the lions. What fool what do that? .

Annanias and Saphira to name just two.

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This was the first century when the spiritual gifts were still operable. Paul had the Biblical gift of tongues as he testifies to in 1Cor.14. I believe also that he had the gift of discernment, as did Timothy. It is doubtful that there were unbelievers in that congregation. That is too much to assume, especially when Paul addresses them as believers. .

The spiritual gifts are not operable anymore?

Our church is composed of baptized believers. I can assure you of that. I know each and every one of them. I am sorry that you belong to a church that has such a conglomeration of unsaved church. I recommend that you leave it and find one that believes the Bible.
.

And all those baptized are believers? You might just be surprised some day. Walk by faith, not by sight.

 

[DHK]

Annanias and Saphira to name just two.

No, you are wrong. Or else you are not just getting it. Annanias no doubt became believers with the full knowledge that they would be persecuted for their faith just as any other believer would be. You have taken Acts 5 out of context. They were not being persecuted for their faith, were they? They had lied to the Holy Spirit. They were hypocrites. I believe they were believers, and have no reason to believe otherwise. Unbelievers do not lie to the Holy Spirit and to God. They received the judgement of God as believers. It was a judgment that brought the fear of God upon believers. It was in the church, a church composed of believers.

The spiritual gifts are not operable anymore?

A simple comparison will suffice.
Take a look at Acts 5:16, and then tell me if you can find anyone with this gift in the entire world. Peter had the gift of healing. Look at what the gift of healing really is:

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Jerusalem was a huge city with a very large population.
People brought the sick, not only from Jerusalem, but from all the cities round about Jerusalem to Peter to be healed from their sicknesses..
The record says: and they were healed every one.
That doesn't take place today.
There is no "faith healer" that would dare go into the ER of any hospital and heal all that are there; that would walk down the corridors of a hospital and heal all that are there.
There is no person today that would hold a tent meeting and invite all in a large city and all the smaller cities surrounding it to come and be healed. And all of them would be healed--every one--including the paraplegics, quadraplegics, obvious lame and blind, where the faith healer would be not under the control of his own environment, but under the control of the news media and made verifiable by actual medical doctors who would be objective in their analysis. This doesn't take place today in any place of the world. Never!

The gift of healing has ceased, as has the other gifts.
I don't say healing has ceased. I never said that. Make that perfectly clear. Healing still goes on. But the gift of healing is not for today.

And all those baptized are believers? You might just be surprised some day. Walk by faith, not by sight.

If someone is baptized and is not a Christian they are disciplined out of the church. The church remains pure. Their is purity in a Biblical church. There is change in a true believer. Maybe you will see that some day.

 

[DHK]

HP: There we have it. Here is the bottom line argument in favor of OSAS. To believe otherwise is ‘ridiculous.’ Somehow that does not resonate with reason as being solid evidence, or to the statements in Scripture of “having damnation having cast off their first faith”, 'turning aside after Satan,' making 'shipwreck of the faith,' ending up with 'dead' faith.

If all these states can be said to exist at one in the same time with exercising faith, define for the list what faith is and what it means to have faith. It would seem to me that you deny a most clear matter of logic as it relates to faith. Logic demands that something cannot be and not be at the same time in the same sense. How is your position concerning faith not in clear opposition to this fundamental principle of reason and logic?

The other issue that seems strange to me is your insistence that man has a free will, yet when it comes to faith it is impossible once having faith for faith to cease to exist. At what point does man lose the ability to do something other than what he does, in this case exercise faith? Could it be that man does not have anything to do with the exercising of faith in the first place? How can the will be said to be free or have anything whatsoever to do with faith if one has no ability to alter ones standing by faith once having received it?

This is your conundrum. Man always has free will--the ability to choose between right and wrong. The man that committed incest in 1Cor.5:1-5 was called by Paul a brother. He was a believer, despite the severity of his sin. And yet Paul told the church "to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh." Harsh punishment for a believer. Yet there it is.
Continue following the passage. Who else are believers:

1 Corinthians 5:9-10 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

All of the above are counted as believers that are in the church. They are to be disciplined out of the church for their scandalous sins. These are the ones they are not to fellowship with--believers in sin.
We may remain in contact with unbeliers who commit such sins. Else how will this world be evangelized? It is the believers that commit such sins that we must disassociate ourselves with, until they come to a place of repentance. Then we must admit them back into the church. The act of "excommunication" has done its work of reconciliation and repentance.

They had sinned grievously against the Lord and against man. But they had never lost their salvation.

 

[steaver]

May God bless you DHK for earnestly contending for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Tell me something MP, what does it profit a man to reject God's instructions to study and rightly divide the word of truth? Why would you want to deny the context and favor one liners? Don't you want to know the truth and learn from God? Have you prayed over these passages and asked God to reveal the truth to you?

About eight years ago I found myself in a state of confusion with this topic of OSAS. Many verses seemed to say it wasn't so. Other verses seemed to say it was.

In frustration I cried out to God and said I want to know the truth about this! I determined to rid myself of any view or position on any passage and began study. Praying to God, referencing Strong's and many commentarians to get insights into what God might have shown others throughout history.

When I humbled myself and called on the Lord it was amazing how the scriptures came alive! Context is a MUST! It is so tempting to pluck out one liners and use them as punch lines but that is totally abusing God's most precious Holy Word.

It all begins with "born of God". When you grasp the reality of what this means from the scriptures, you will find peace with eternal security.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

No. Paul uses a similar phrase for himself. Paul was never in doubt concerning his own salvation. He knew that his life was secure in Christ. "Being a castaway" was

Indeed that is the whole point - He knows He is saved and he does not want to be "disqualified" from the very Gospel of salvation that he is preaching. The last thing he wants is to be "Severed from Christ" or "Fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4.

SO with earnest effort he "buffets his BODY and makes it his slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others HE HIMSELF should be disqualified" NASB.

Notice that in John 15 the branches "IN ME" that are "cast away" are in fact tossed into the fire once they have withered and died.

The massive effort required to rescue OSAS from the plain teaching of scripture is not time well spent gentlemen.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Nowhere in Scripture does it teach that the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn from any believer. Does God lie?

God commands the believer to "quench not the spirit" -- commands of that type exist to motive us to "do something".

Mankind is never commanded to "grow old" to "eat when hungry" to do all of that which "happens on it's own" nor to beware of that which "can never happen".

This always comes as a surprise to those promoting OSAS.

God gives a gift of eternal life at the point when He gives the Holy Spirit at salvation. Eternal can never become temporary. If it could God would be a liar, wouldn't he?

Why have you read so much into this passage that is not there. That is the tactic of J.W.'s and the RCC's. I expected more from you.

1 Timothy 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
The word "damnation" means "judgment."

More precisely it always means "condemnation" not simply "judgment".

As Paul notes in Heb 11 -"without faith it is impossible to please HIM".

As Paul argues in Romans 11 "But you should FEAR for you STAND only by your FAITh and if He did not spare THEM then NEITHER will he spare you".

Casting off the faith "by which you stand" is NEVER stated in scripture as being "a way to stand anyway even without faith".

All such "rescue OSAS at any cost" solutions do not pass the test of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[billwald]

BIG DIFFERENCE between having eternal life (being one of the elect) and the hope of eternal life (hoping to be one of the elect). As John Calvin noted (someplace), there is no objective test for the state of being one of the elect.

The dispensations are better analyzed as being God's system for obtaining temporal blessings rather than God's system for obtaining blessings in the next life. It would give the local church a better sales pitch.

 

[steaver]

Mankind is never commanded to "grow old" to "eat when hungry" to do all of that which "happens on it's own" nor to beware of that which "can never happen".

Nor is he ever commanded to earn or keep his eternal life.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Cr 9:15 Thanks [be] unto God for his unspeakable gift.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Learn this and you will understand salvation...."Not of yourself, it is the gift of God"

God Bless! :thumbs:

ps. all those scriptures you referenced, just because you cannot understand them does not change "Not of yourself, it is the gift of God". Key word "gift", learn what it means!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

HP: Would we not also do well to study the implications of the word 'if?'

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SteAVER: Nor is he ever commanded to earn or keep his eternal life.

HP: 1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments

Here is that little’ word ‘if’ again. Certainly those things God commands of man are never thought of a meritorious in regards to salvation, but none the less we are to 'keep' that which we have received, without which we will not inherit eternal life. Lu 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

 

[BobRyan]

As I have just been reminded - these topics come and go with regular frequency and almost always I benefit from the research done during the discussion.

OSAS being no exception to the rule.

God's Word commands us to Endure. Conditional Results IF we Endure/Persevere

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1 Timothy 4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED

Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."


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[steaver]

HP: Would we not also do well to study the implications of the word 'if?'

Absolutely !

Now apply those "if's" biblically, allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Take all of BobRyan's list and apply them to the test of this scripture.

Those who walk away have what?

....."they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

They were part of the church physically, but never made the conversion spiritually into God's Kingdom. Ye must be born again!

There are unconverted people sitting in most every gathering of "Christians".

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: ....."they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

They were part of the church physically, but never made the conversion spiritually into God's Kingdom. Ye must be born again!

There are unconverted people sitting in most every gathering of "Christians".

HP: I do not see where those mentioned had never made a profession of faith, or had never been converted spiritually into the Kingdom. I would agree that such is a possibility but the Scriptures do not say nor imply that. It is just as possible that they had.

But oh no! We cannot have that possibility! That goes against the presupposition of OSAS that we must defend at all cost to logic, reason, Scripture or possibility!

 

[steaver]

HP: I do not see where those mentioned had never made a profession of faith, or had never been converted spiritually into the Kingdom. I would agree that such is a possibility but the Scriptures do not say nor imply that. It is just as possible that they had.

But oh no! We cannot have that possibility! That goes against the presupposition of OSAS that we must defend at all cost to logic, reason, Scripture or possibility!

Here it is again.........."they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Here is another one for you as well.....

Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But oh no! We cannot have that truth! That goes against the presupposition of Once saved then Lost that we must defend at all cost to logic, reason, Scripture or possibility!

God Bless! :thumbs: