Is Hope of Eternal Life Bound to Faith?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Here it is again.........."they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

HP: Stay focused for a minute. Do not jump from passage to passage pulling one verse out of one context to prove something else in another that the context does not by itself support. Where, in the verse in question, does it say or imply that they never once had faith or that they had never believed in Christ? Would you simply admit the truth in that one cannot use this passage in any way to support the notion of OSAS? If not, you have your work cut out to show us plainly from this passage otherwise.

After we look truthfully and fairly at this passage we can look at the other one you mentioned.

 

[steaver]

After we look truthfully and fairly at this passage we can look at the other one you mentioned.

Now a call to truthfully stay in context?

After your refusal to truthfully and fairly divide the passage concerning young christian widows?

After you totally ignored context concerning said widows and decided to just stick with the one liner?

Where, in the verse in question, does it say or imply that they never once had faith or that they had never believed in Christ?

1Jo 2:18¶Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

"antichrist" does not mean "prochrist" or "born of God" or "saved" or "faith in Christ" or "Christian".

Take a look in the mirror. Can you see your nose now?:wavey:

God Bless! raying:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: I believe I did treat that passage fairly. I am not alone in my assessment of the passage. Have you ever read Adam Clarke on the passage? Just a suggestion.

Where, in the following verses, does it say or imply that they never once had faith or that they had never believed in Christ?

Steaver: 1Jo 2:18¶Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

HP: I ask the same question again of both of these passages. Where, in the verse in question, does it say or imply that they never once had faith or that they had never believed in Christ?

 

[steaver]

HP: I believe I did treat that passage fairly. I am not alone in my assessment of the passage. Have you ever read Adam Clarke on the passage? Just a suggestion.

Adam Clarke:

Verse 11. But the younger widows refuse] Do not admit those into this office who are under sixty years of age. Probably those who were received into such a list promised to abide in their widowhood. But as young or comparatively young women might have both occasion and temptations to remarry, and so break their engagement to Christ, they should not be admitted. Not that the apostle condemns their remarrying as a crime in itself, but because it was contrary to their engagement. See on verse 14.
Wax wanton] katastrhniaswsi? From kata, intensive, and strhniaw, to act in a luxurious or wanton manner. The word is supposed to be derived from sterein, to remove, and hnia, the rein; and is a metaphor taken from a pampered horse, from whose mouth the rein has been removed, so that there is nothing to check or confine him. The metaphor is plain enough, and the application easy.
Verse 12. Having damnation] In the sense in which we use this word I am satisfied the apostle never intended it. It is likely that he refers here to some promise or engagement which they made when taken on the list already mentioned, and now they have the guilt of having violated that promise; this is the krima, or condemnation, of which the apostle speaks. They have cast off their first faith.] By pledging their fidelity to a husband they have cast off their fidelity to Christ, as a marriedlife and their previous engagement are incompatible. Dr. Macknight translates these two verses thus: But the younger widows reject, for when they cannot endure Christ's rein, they will marry; incurring condemnation, because they have put away their first fidelity.

Clarke has said exactly what DHK and I have said. Are you mistaken and thinking of another commentator?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Clarke has said exactly what DHK and I have said. Are you mistaken and thinking of another commentator?

HP: He does seem to take the line of reasoning you and DHK do in the verses you quote from him but seems to deviate from that to the line of reasoning I have set forth in his comments on verses 14 which is still speaking directly of why Paul laid down the rules that he was laying down. Clarke goes on to say, “verse 15. For some have already turned aside] Some of these young widows, for he appears to be still treating them, are turned aside to idolatry to follow after Satan instead of after Christ. Slight deviations, in the first instance, from a right line, may lead at last to an infinite distance from Christ.” I comment that no one once a believer can still be classified as a believer when on a path that leads to an “infinite distance from Christ.”

Clarke also quotes a Dr. Macknight saying “But the young widow reject, for when they cannot endure Christ’s reign they will marry: incurring condemnation, because they have put away their first fidelity.” Clarke makes it clear that simply marrying is not wrong, but “it is a sin in every case to be idle persons, gadders about, tattles, busybodies, sifting out and detailing family secrets, etc.

One can draw any conclusions one so desires, but I believe the truth of the matter is when one stops following Christ and start following Satan, to believe one can still be in possession of a certain hope of eternal life, is to be deceived. “He that is not for me is against me.” “Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”:

No one can be at the same time following after Christ having turned aside and be found to be following after Satan. “Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver, I also note that in the Biblical Illustrator the author, commenting on these verses, makes clear mention of the fact that Paul must have been painfully aware that some in the Church at Ephesus “had already fallen into the evils to which he refers, having lost their first simple faith in Jesus Christ, and their former consecration to Him.”

I would conclude that although in part you are correct in what you are saying, you still seem bent on refusing to acknowledge the end to which this failure of consecration must invariably lead of which the apostle is warning about, i.e., a falling away from, a loss of, a turning away from, the faith in Christ they once had which will eventually lead to their separation from God. Adam Clarke again mentions that separation from God as an ‘infinite’ separation.

 

[steaver]

HP: He does seem to take the line of reasoning you and DHK do in the verses you quote from him but seems to deviate from that to the line of reasoning I have set forth in his comments on verses 14 which is still speaking directly of why Paul laid down the rules that he was laying down.

If Clarke says that this damnation (vs 12) is not the damnation commonly thought of (to hell) and then two paragraphs later says that it is, then he is not worthy of reference because he has no clear path of understanding. He is being tossed to and fro.

But I however see no deviation at all. Clarke makes it clear that he believes Paul is not speaking of damnation to hell in verse 12.

Therefor verse 15...Clarke....

...."Verse 15. For some are already turned aside] Some of these young widows, for he appears to be still treating of them, are turned aside to idolatry, to follow Satan instead of Christ. Slight deviations, in the first instance, from a right line, may lead at last to an infinite distance from Christ."

Clarke must be speaking about something else other than verse 12. He is not an idiot, he knows full well he just proclaimed verse 12 to NOT be damnation to hell but damnation of some other consequences for breaking a commitment to have Christ alone as provider apart from a husband.

In this light Clarke may be refering to the fact that some of these widows may not even be Christians and by their idolatries they "may lead at last to an infinite distance from Christ."

OR

Clarke may believe one can turn and become lost after being saved.

Either way, Clarke does not support your view that the damnation spoken of in verse 12 is damnation to hell. Even if he ultimately holds your view of losing salvation.

God bless! :wavey:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Even if he ultimately holds your view of losing salvation.

HP: Can you point to one place I have ever said that one can lose their salvation? I so, show the list the quote. If you cannot, could you please retract your statement until such a time as I do say that or you understand my position, which ever comes first? Thanks.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Let me explain to the listener the problem we are facing with the text in 1Ti 5:11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

There are two not one issues at stake here. Steaver would like there to be only one issue, and tries his best to paint the others view in the most unfavorable light, laying great stress upon the his own words of ‘losing ones salvation’ not found in the text or in anything I have written.

It is true that no one ‘has lost their salvation’ (using Steavers words) in verse 11 or 12, but what Steaver refuses to see is that Paul is laying the groundwork for his comments in verse 15. 1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. Here again no one, not Paul nor I, say that one has lost their salvation, neither does it say that any have a hope of salvation. Steaver is busy erecting paper ducks to shoot at or straw men he believes he can easily destroy.

In this life we walk by faith. The OP asks the question as to whether or not one can entertain a certain hope of eternal life without faith. Here we see Paul stating that not only does the distinct possibility exist that one can cast off their faith in Christ, but also that some indeed have to the point of following hard after Satan.

I would ask Steaver once again if in fact one can entertain a certain hope of eternal life subsequent to casting off ones faith? If so then is he not establishing his belief that one does not have to be currently exercising faith in order to be in a right relationship with God, and in essence is inferring that one can walk 180 degrees opposite of faith, casting away their faith and following after Satan and still be counted worthy of the Kingdom? If this is not a license to sin and do despite the spirit of Grace what could there be? If this is not a purely antinomian doctrine being espoused by Steaver, what again could be?

What about these verses? Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Mt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Who can be a follower after Satan, casting away ones first faith, and still be found worthy of Christ and as such be classified as a member of God’s Kingdom? Steaver evidently would have us to believe these widows could. I believe Scripture teaches directly to the contrary.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is one of the best connections that we see in scripture on the need for persevering in "faith" (for those who belive in saved by grace through faith) to remain in the body of Christ - to remain saved.

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'] Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for [/b]God is able to graft them in again.[/b]

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[BobRyan]

Here is one of the best connections that we see in scripture on the need for persevering in "faith" (for those who belive in saved by grace through faith) to remain in the body of Christ - to remain saved.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for [/b]God is able to graft them in again.[/b]

[/font]

 

[BobRyan]

And as if Rom 11 were not a difficult enough chapter in scripture for OSAS to "survive" Matt 18 shows that we must persevere in a faith "that works" that walks in obedience to "remain forgiven" to avoid "Forgiveness revoked".

Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Having established the point conclusively we also have look at Matt 13 - the Rocky ground as OPPOSED to the "wayside" where LIFE NEVER springs up from the dead ground.

And then John 15:1-9 where those who "ABIDE IN HIM" are "removed and cast into the fire".

And that we will do once the discussion group has had time to accept Romans 11 and Matt 18.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

HP: Can you point to one place I have ever said that one can lose their salvation? I so, show the list the quote. If you cannot, could you please retract your statement until such a time as I do say that or you understand my position, which ever comes first? Thanks.

Let's just make it simple in a question.

Do you believe one can become saved, born again, and then lose their salvation sometime afterwards?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

I would ask Steaver once again if in fact one can entertain a certain hope of eternal life subsequent to casting off ones faith?

You can find my answer on page 1 post #3.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: You can find my answer on page 1 post #3.

HP: Then how would you say that one can cast off something they obviously are not in possession of?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Do you believe one can become saved, born again, and then lose their salvation sometime afterwards?

HP: The question I believe is mute, due to the fact salvation consists of three parts, not simply one, believing. Although it is true that we enter into the hope of salvation by repentance and faith, that is not all there is to being saved. We must continue in the faith until the end and then stand before the Judge of the Universe to be judged. Not until we pass from that hall of judgment will our eternal salvation no longer be by faith. It will then be that our faith will turn to sight and from that point onward we will live and reign with Christ for eternity. So you see, salvation is thought of in three tense not one. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. I believe one can enter into a hope of eternal life but fail to persevere and at the judgment be found without an Advocate. At that moment the faith one once had will not be sufficient to realize a final abode with Christ, having cast of ones first faith as proven out by the works by which every individual will be judged.

In the here and now it is not that we have 'lost our salvation,’ for it is not over till it’s over. The question is not whether I have lost my salvation in the here and now, but rather the question should be, will I be found in Christ in the last day on the path I am currently on.

To answer again as directly as I can due to the way you worded the question, I do believe one can repent and turn to Christ in faith, yet cast away their faith and remain in an unrepentant state until the end and be judged apart from Christ at the judgment.

 

[steaver]

HP: The question I believe is mute, due to the fact salvation consists of three parts, not simply one, believing. Although it is true that we enter into the hope of salvation by repentance and faith, that is not all there is to being saved. We must continue in the faith until the end and then stand before the Judge of the Universe to be judged. Not until we pass from that hall of judgment will our eternal salvation no longer be by faith. It will then be that our faith will turn to sight and from that point onward we will live and reign with Christ for eternity. So you see, salvation is thought of in three tense not one. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. I believe one can enter into a hope of eternal life but fail to persevere and at the judgment be found without an Advocate. At that moment the faith one once had will not be sufficient to realize a final abode with Christ, having cast of ones first faith as proven out by the works by which every individual will be judged.

In the here and now it is not that we have 'lost our salvation,’ for it is not over till it’s over. The question is not whether I have lost my salvation in the here and now, but rather the question should be, will I be found in Christ in the last day on the path I am currently on.

To answer again as directly as I can due to the way you worded the question, I do believe one can repent and turn to Christ in faith, yet cast away their faith and remain in an unrepentant state until the end and be judged apart from Christ at the judgment.

You did not mention "born again". Is this part of your understanding of God's salvation plan and if so what is the purpose of being born again?

HP: Then how would you say that one can cast off something they obviously are not in possession of?

I don't say such. Casting off has nothing to do with having absolutely no faith in Christ at all for salvation. Casting off here is spoken of in the sense of setting aside one's devotion to Christ, some prior commitment made (as the full context of the passage conveys), for something new that has come along.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: You did not mention "born again". Is this part of your understanding of God's salvation plan and if so what is the purpose of being born again?

HP: Ye MUST be born again. To be born again is to be have fulfilled the conditions God has set forth for the remission of sins and to be restored by faith to a right relationship with him. When we are born again and experience the forgiveness of sins that are past, the Holy Spirit indwells our spirit and testifies to our spirit that we are children of God.
Quote:
HP: Then how would you say that one can cast off something they obviously are not in possession of?

Steaver; I don't say such. Casting off has nothing to do with having absolutely no faith in Christ at all for salvation.

HP: And why not? When we cast off our faith in Christ we cannot be said to have faith at one in the same time. Either we have faith or we have cast off our faith. If you cast off a garment can it be said that you are at the same time wearing it? To cast off is indeed to discard, to have a complete change of heart in regard to ones faith. Nothing can be clearer.

Steaver: Casting off here is spoken of in the sense of setting aside one's devotion to Christ, some prior commitment made (as the full context of the passage conveys), for something new that has come along.

HP: ‘Either you are for me or you are against me.’ There is no setting aside of ones faith as you proclaim without rejecting ones relationship with God. ‘Mt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.’ No devotion, no faith. No faith, no relationship. No faith, no certain hope of eternal life. With no faith, it is impossible to please God.

 

[steaver]

HP: Ye MUST be born again. To be born again is to be have fulfilled the conditions God has set forth for the remission of sins

Can you present some scripture to support what you say here on born again?

Jhn 1:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

How do you harmonize "conditions God has set forth" with John 1:13?

HP: And why not? When we cast off our faith in Christ we cannot be said to have faith at one in the same time. Either we have faith or we have cast off our faith. If you cast off a garment can it be said that you are at the same time wearing it? To cast off is indeed to discard, to have a complete change of heart in regard to ones faith. Nothing can be clearer.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Once born a human, always a human. Once born a child of God, always a child of God. Jesus could not have made it any clearer using the analogy of a birth, that which cannot be undone.

HP: ‘Either you are for me or you are against me.’ There is no setting aside of ones faith as you proclaim without rejecting ones relationship with God.

The "faith" in the passage in question was the young christian widow's faith that Jesus would take care of all her needs on this earth apart from a husband. Context, context!

Saving faith is another matter and with saving faith one cannot stop believing that which they have absolute knowledge through the rebirth that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Try it! Stop believing for just one second and then go ahead and begin believing again. I bet you can't! Don't worry about dieing in that one second and going to hell, just try it and tell me how you made out.

Guess what HP, you can't stop can you? It is impossible isn't it? How can you stop believing that which you know is absolute truth? You can't!

God Bless! :thumbs: