Is Hope of Eternal Life Bound to Faith?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Once born a human, always a human. Once born a child of God, always a child of God. Jesus could not have made it any clearer using the analogy of a birth, that which cannot be undone.

HP: Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

It would appear to me that Christ made it exceedingly clear that there was a clear demarcation between the flesh, which is temporal, and the spiritual realm which is eternal. Scripture also states that if we are to inhabit eternity there is a change which must occur which involves the dissolution of the human flesh. Moreover, Christ stated that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. 1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Now where was that passage that states once a human always a human?

 

[steaver]

HP: Scripture also states that if we are to inhabit eternity there is a change which must occur which involves the dissolution of the human flesh. Moreover, Christ stated that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. 1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Now where was that passage that states once a human always a human?

So what are you saying? Because we will be ressurrected with a new spiritual, heavenly body like Jesus we will no longer be human?

Here is a couple of questions you missed....

Quote:
HP: Ye MUST be born again. To be born again is to be have fulfilled the conditions God has set forth for the remission of sins


(Steaver).....Can you present some scripture to support what you say here on born again?

Jhn 1:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

How do you harmonize "conditions God has set forth" with John 1:13?

(Steaver)....How can you stop believing that which you know is absolute truth?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Actually, one can entertain the hope for eternal life without faith.

That does not mean they will enter into eternal life though.

Many entertain that hope as evidenced by the Lord's Words in Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[trustitl]

Once born a human, always a human. Once born a child of God, always a child of God. Jesus could not have made it any clearer using the analogy of a birth, that which cannot be undone.

Saving faith is another matter and with saving faith one cannot stop believing that which they have absolute knowledge through the rebirth that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Try it! Stop believing for just one second and then go ahead and begin believing again. I bet you can't! Don't worry about dieing in that one second and going to hell, just try it and tell me how you made out.

Guess what HP, you can't stop can you? It is impossible isn't it? How can you stop believing that which you know is absolute truth? You can't!

Your analogy is not supported by scripture. I could tell you to try have a heart attack. You can't do it can you. Does that mean you can't have a heart attack? Hardening of the arteries doesn't happen overnight, it happens on order of fries at a time. So to does the hardening of our heart through sin.

Exactly who are the brethren in the following?

Heb. 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end"

Verse 1 tells us : "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling"

And verse 6 gives us an important exhortation: "whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

Having this as a "condition" for salvation is detestable for some, but not the writers of scripture.

 

[steaver]

Your analogy is not supported by scripture. I could tell you to try have a heart attack. You can't do it can you. Does that mean you can't have a heart attack?

Did you have any part in being born?

Neither do you have any part in being "born again". It is an act of God.

Jhn 1:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now try to become unborn!

Heart attacks can be caused by yourself in some ways but not always. Births cannot. Once you are born of God you will always be born of God.

Now if you believe that even though you have been born of God you can still end up in hell then you must conclude that some children of God go to hell. You will not find any such statement in the scriptures.

Will you humble yourself and except that by grace ye have been saved through faith and this not of yourself, it is the gift of God?

Add "conditions" and it is no longer a gift.

Exactly who are the brethren in the following?

Heb. 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end"

Verse 1 tells us : "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling"

And verse 6 gives us an important exhortation: "whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

Having this as a "condition" for salvation is detestable for some, but not the writers of scripture.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end"

If we do not hold stedfast unto the end, we were not made partakers of Christ. Never born again. It is a test. Paul said "examine yourself" (2Cr 13:5). Much scripture is devoted to teaching those professing to be believers how to understand if they have truly been born of God.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[trustitl]

"Add "conditions" and it is no longer a gift."

Even gifts have to be opened.

"If we do not hold stedfast unto the end, we were not made partakers of Christ."

That might be what your doctrine says, but it isn't what the verse says.

Your "Did you have any part in being born?" is getting a little old and it doesn't really get at the what is being addressed.

 

[steaver]

Even gifts have to be opened.

Gifts must be received or rejected. The gift of eternal life through rebirth is not just any gift that can be taken and then later given away or lost because it involves a birth, a new creature, a regeneration.

Once you are born you are forever born. Once you are ressurrected you will be forever ressurrected. Certain acts of God are eternal.

That might be what your doctrine says, but it isn't what the verse says.

Scripture interprets scripture and this is the correct interpretation when using this rule and context. Do you understand "grace through faith and this not of yourselves"?

Your "Did you have any part in being born?" is getting a little old and it doesn't really get at the what is being addressed.

It is a reality that will never go away. I have harmonized this fact with all scripture. You can either continue to ignore it or face it and do the same. Regeneration is an act of God. You are a new creature, the old creature has passed away, two has become one, it cannot be undone! Noe would anyone want it to be! Praise Him!!

God bless! :thumbs:

 

[trustitl]

Gifts must be received or rejected. The gift of eternal life through rebirth is not just any gift that can be taken and then later given away or lost because it involves a birth, a new creature, a regeneration.

Does the gift of eternal life need to be received? Is that not a condition? Or is this a gift that is imposed upon us?

God once took worthless dirt and made a man, now he takes worthless (on its own) faith and counts it as righteousness and a new creature is born.

You may say "And as God created the dirt, he also created your faith". To which I would say, "He created man with the ability to have faith." In fact, this is one of the things that makes us created in the image of God.

Scripture interprets scripture and this is the correct interpretation when using this rule and context. Do you understand "grace through faith and this not of yourselves"?

Yes. It's pretty simple. It is the grace of God that saves me. We get it through faith. You have to get it out of your head that faith is a work. To me faith in God is the ultimate act of not working. It is when we see our lost condition and Gods merciful act of atoning for us and trust His work on our behalf.

"if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom. 4:2-5

Praise the Lord! :godisgood:

 

[DHK]

Does the gift of eternal life need to be received? Is that not a condition? Or is this a gift that is imposed upon us?

You are far too techinical in your definition of "condition" or "works" as you imply.
If it is a condition imposed by God then logically one has a works-based salvation.
But it is not a condition, neither is it forced upon us.

I have children. They have birthdays, and we have other celebrations such as Christmas, at which times I give them gifts. Such gifts are neither forced upon them, neither do they work for them. But they do receive them They must receive them in order to get the gift. The gift is free. There is no work involved. I am not going to require them to do X amount of chores or save up Y amount of money before they are able "receive" the gift. The gift would not be freely received then; it would be earned, and not a gift at all.
Thus the action of receiving is not a condition; not a work. It is not a condition on God's part, or a work on man's part. The two are the same. It only depends on the viewpoint that you are looking from. Savation is by grace through faith and that not of works. The condition/work of receiving is therefore not a work/condition at all. It cannot be.

 

[steaver]

Trustitl: You have to get it out of your head that faith is a work.

I don't no were you ever got the idea from any of my post that I believe faith is a work.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[billwald]

The original post is a straw man because "eternal life" is a Christian code word that only insiders understand. "Hope" is also a code word. Should be obvious that anyone who accepts the concept of reincarnation has a hope of eternal life.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: You have to get it out of your head that faith is a work. To me faith in God is the ultimate act of not working. It is when we see our lost condition and Gods merciful act of atoning for us and trust His work on our behalf.

HP: Works are thought of in two not one sense: ‘That for the sake of’ and ‘not without which.’ Our faith is NOT the grounds of our salvation, but we will not be saved apart from our exercising of faith. We cannot ‘do something’ to initiate the plan of salvation, nor does anything, including faith, prove to be meritorious in achieving salvation, yet just the same we must voluntarily exercise faith, by an act of our will, in order to be saved. We are not saved by our faith, yet we will not be saved apart from our faith. We are not saved by our works, just the same, neither will we saved apart from our works.

Faith indeed involves an act of the will just the same as any and every work. Again, faith is at antipodes with works only as we contemplate or are speaking of the relationship it sustains to the grounds of our salvation. The only grounds of our salvation is the grace of God. Nothing we do, including the exercising of faith or repentance has any ability to design or implement the plan by which we are saved. Nothing we do is in any way meritorious it its ability to design or implement the plan of salvation. Just the same, without repentance and faith salvation will not be accomplished in any ones heart and life.

There is a sense in which faith is NOT a work, and there is a sense in faith IS a work. Just because you point to one sense in a singular passage, indicating that our salvation is not by works, does not necessitate the idea that faith in another sense is not a work and as such required by God for man to enact it in order for salvation to be made effective in our lives. “Faith without works is dead being alone.’” Faith and works are only at antipodes as we contemplate the grounds of salvation. Faith and works are in complete harmony as we consider the conditions God has placed upon man, without which no man shall be saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Billwald: Should be obvious that anyone who accepts the concept of reincarnation has a hope of eternal life.

HP: The only problem is that you seem to have a hard time distinguishing between the ‘false hope’ you mention and the 'true hope’ of eternal life Scripture clearly speaks of. False hopes do not in any way negate the truth of a true and sure hope.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[trustitl]

Works are thought of in two not one sense: ‘That for the sake of’ and ‘not without which.’ Our faith is NOT the grounds of our salvation, but we will not be saved apart from our exercising of faith.

Faith indeed involves an act of the will just the same as any and every work.

There is a sense in which faith is NOT a work, and there is a sense in faith IS a work. Just because you point to one sense in a singular passage, indicating that our salvation is not by works, does not necessitate the idea that faith in another sense is not a work and as such required by God for man to enact it in order for salvation to be made effective in our lives. “Faith without works is dead being alone.’”

Let me see if I can explain how I see the way faith, works, justification, and salvation fit together.

I will stick with "faith is not a work" although I agree with your statement that it is an exercise of my will. I think Paul sees "works" as religious activities that in same way appease a diety or earn our favor with it. All religions have these at the core of their teaching. Only true Christianity is free from it.

I see James as teaching about justification in a different sense than being declared righteous the way Paul uses the term. So I don't see works being used in two senses but rather justification being used in two ways. I am justified by my faith the same way God was justified. "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John." Luke 7:29
James is trying to show people that you just can't say you are saved and not have it change your life.

Furthermore, Paul was teaching the Galations that they would not be justified by keeping the law. I think he was telling them that one does not prove himself to be a Christian by keeping the law. He addresses them as brothers and acknowledged that they had started in the flesh and were now trying to be made perfect in the flesh. I think he is addressing their desire to do works to win favor with a God that rewards those who love him and seek him by faith.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb. 11:6
"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." Gal. 5:6

Also, I do not see much of a distinction between faith in God and repentace toward God. They are kind of like two different sides of the same coin.

I believe in "ONEconditional election" that being faith. Works has nothing to do with getting me saved or keeping me saved. We are saved by grace through faith and are kept by the power of God through faith.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: I believe in "ONEconditional election" that being faith. Works has nothing to do with getting me saved or keeping me saved. We are saved by grace through faith and are kept by the power of God through faith.

HP: I will start with your summary.

The Apostle John came preaching repentance. Mt 3:1 ¶ In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Jesus started His ministry preaching repentance. Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” The apostles came preaching repentance in Acts. Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Jesus said, Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. ” I see repentance as a condition separate from faith, and required antecedent to faith. Do you recall the prison illustration how that conditions that require acts of our will are required to receive a pardon, yet are not the grounds of the pardon? I believe salvation is much the same. You cannot say that our will is active, yet say that no work is involved. You can say that although we are required by God to do something that in reality is a work in some sense, in this case repentance, faith and obedience to the end, ( for a work is none other than something we chose and or do of our own volition and free choice) our chosen intents can only be thought of in the sense of ‘not without which’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ We are not saved for the sake of repentance, faith and obedience, but neither will we be saved apart from them.

 

[trustitl]

Like I said earlier "I do not see much of a distinction between faith in God and repentace toward God. They are kind of like two different sides of the same coin."

I guess you look at the repentance side first. I don't think we would repent toward God if we didn't have faith in Him.

Perhaps you don't agree with my understanding of works, but I think my defintion is consistent with how Paul understood it and talked about it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: Perhaps you don't agree with my understanding of works…

HP: But I do appreciate not only your willingness to discuss the issues openly but your kind approach when we do disagree. :thumbs: I hope some of your gentleness rubs off on me!

 

[trustitl]

HP: But I do appreciate not only your willingness to discuss the issues openly but your kind approach when we do disagree. :thumbs: I hope some of your gentleness rubs off on me!

Don't rub too hard, I'm not sure I have much to spare. :smilewinkgrin: