And as I had proven in that old thread --the two lists bare no relation to the other no matter how one can try to stitch them together.
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Is Hyper Calvinism Regarded As being Non Biblical, As A False Gospel?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
And as I had proven in that old thread --the two lists bare no relation to the other no matter how one can try to stitch them together.
HAHA! Whlie yes, you rambled and fumbled around but was consistently DISproven, via others who are Reformed (and learned and respected in their theology) and thus the Reformed view itself. You were wrong then and are STILL wrong now. Anyhoo..
As I told you then, and it still applies, don't whine to me, go tell them (Monergism and Spurgeon.com, and the others I cited) they don't understand Calvinism properly and what constitutes a Hyper and/or Hyper tenancies. You go and set them straight, and then come back here and post your mail exchanges and how you corrected them... We will wait patiently for you.
Here is a portion of my mail to John H. at Monergism.com regarding if both lists were saying the 'same' things because there a particular Cal who does not believe the two lists provided are saying the same things (which was you)
As noted in that thread and now here also is John H (of Monergism.com) is reply to both questions:
So I say again, why not do us all a favor and contact them yourself and set them straight. They have a great deal more understanding than I do in these areas and are well known as well are reputable Calvinists in theology and practice, that is why I asked their opinions, and THEY state, both lists are in agreement and "farily acrruately represent what a HC is".
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Robert Snow
New Member
I believe Hyper-Calvinism is certainly a false Gospel. Calvinism, on the other hand is simply a wrong interpretation of what the bibles presents as God's salvation offered to mankind.
And you are simply wrong about that.
I disagree with you Rippon. The Calvinists on this BB have convinced me they are wrong. From their own words I cannot see how they can ever feel they themselves are saved ... much less anyone else.
Additionally, as they have sparked my interest, I have been doing a bit of reading on the life of Calvin. I do not see how a person with such a flawed character can be seen as a model of Christian witness ... and also I cannot see how his beliefs can be viewed as valid seeing as how he turn God into an evil spirit responsible for all the evil in the world ... for his own glory. This simply makes no sense logically, theologically, philosophically or otherwise.
I did not hold these views until the Calvinists here convinced me of their and Calvin's errors. Being able to quote scripture in support of one's personal beliefs does not automatically make those beliefs correct.
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You have stepped over the line there C-boy.Don't start charging Calvinists here with being unsaved.
He was a sinner saved by grace like the rest of the redeemed who nevertheless lived on a much higher plane than many of us.The world wasn't worthy of him.
I'd like to know the source of your "bit of reading" there C-boy. Calvin did not turn God into the evil monster you portray. You should be ashamed of yourself. But the question is :Can you even blush?
I did not say, nor would I say a Calvinist is not saved. But, from the statements made by Calvinist on this board I do not see how they can have a strong feeling they are saved.
I hope you are right. I do not see his living his life on a high plane. If he were alive today and committed the same deeds as were preformed in Geneva he would be viewed as an evil person IMHO.
I say Calvinist turn God into an evil monster when they say he preordained every evil deed, all wife beatings, all child abuse, all murders, all rapes, etc. and that he did it so we could see his grace and glory. These are not my words, nor words from books but from entries in several other threads. If those who made these statements are right about Calvin's theology, then yes, he turned God into the root of all evil ... and I reject that idea. Those are major reasons Calvinist here convinced me they are wrong. My hope is that these folk have a misunderstood what Calvin was teaching.
While Rippon and I might love to disagree on certain issues, this is one I will agree with on. I think you have made charges that do not properly characterize Calvinists for and what they are.. but have let your perceived view speak as fact, where there is none or very little.
Preface To The Commentary On The Psalms (1557). An extract will follow.
A great proportion of them,it is true,are so blinded by a passion for slander and detraction,that to their great disgrace,they betray at once their impudence,while others,however crafty and cunning,cannot so cover or disguise themselves as to escape being shamefully convicted and disgraced;yet when a man has been a hundred times found innocent of a charge brought against him,and when the charge is again repeated without any cause or occasion,it is an indignity hard to bear. Because I affirm and maintain that the world is managed and governed by the secret providence of God,a multitude of presumptuous men rise up against me and allege that I represent God as the author of sin. This is so foolish a calumny that it would of itself quickly come to nothing,did it not meet with persons who have tickled ears,and who take pleasure in feeding upon such discourse. But there are many whose minds are so filled with envy and spleen,or ingratitude,or malignity,that there is no falsehood,hoever preposterous,yea,even monstrous,which they do not receive if it is spoken to them. Others endeavor to overthrow God's eternal purpose of predestination,by which he distinguishes between the reprobate and the elect;others take upon them to defend free will;and forthwith many throw themselves into their ranks,not so much through ignorance as by a perversity of zeal which I know not how to characterize. If they were open and avowed enemies,who brought these troubles upon me,the thing might in some way be borne. But that those who shroud themselves under the name of brethren,and not only eat Christ's sacred bread,but also administer it to others,that those,in short,who loudly boast of being preachers of the gospel,should wage such nefarious war against me,how detestable is it?
A great proportion of them,it is true,are so blinded by a passion for slander and detraction,that to their great disgrace,they betray at once their impudence,while others,however crafty and cunning,cannot so cover or disguise themselves as to escape being shamefully convicted and disgraced;yet when a man has been a hundred times found innocent of a charge brought against him,and when the charge is again repeated without any cause or occasion,it is an indignity hard to bear. Because I affirm and maintain that the world is managed and governed by the secret providence of God,a multitude of presumptuous men rise up against me and allege that I represent God as the author of sin. This is so foolish a calumny that it would of itself quickly come to nothing,did it not meet with persons who have tickled ears,and who take pleasure in feeding upon such discourse. But there are many whose minds are so filled with envy and spleen,or ingratitude,or malignity,that there is no falsehood,hoever preposterous,yea,even monstrous,which they do not receive if it is spoken to them. Others endeavor to overthrow God's eternal purpose of predestination,by which he distinguishes between the reprobate and the elect;others take upon them to defend free will;and forthwith many throw themselves into their ranks,not so much through ignorance as by a perversity of zeal which I know not how to characterize. If they were open and avowed enemies,who brought these troubles upon me,the thing might in some way be borne. But that those who shroud themselves under the name of brethren,and not only eat Christ's sacred bread,but also administer it to others,that those,in short,who loudly boast of being preachers of the gospel,should wage such nefarious war against me,how detestable is it?
I had no preconceptions prior to several threads that were discussed on this board the past few months. I was quite neutral on the subject.
I viewed a clip on You Tube of John Piper ... I believe the address to the clip was posted by Luke ... and Piper made the statement that all rapes, wife beatings, etc. were planned by God for his own glory. There was some discussion on this and several posters agreed with the idea Piper espoused in the clip. That was the point were I decided that this is a theology that is in deep error.
I do wonder if Calvin would recognize himself if he were alive to see what modern day Calvinist say he believed.
Do you consider 'Christian fatalism' to be synonymous with, or the product of, 'hyper Calvinism'?
How would you define 'hyper Arminianism'?
I believe a horrendous lie carried by the hyper Arminians today is that folks are going to burn in hell for all eternity if Christians fail in their duty to spread the gospel to as many as possible.
Do you believe this lie?
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Hmmmm, I am curious ... how is it a lie. If Christians do not spread the good news of Christ to the world how will people learn of and turn to Christ to be saved? Will they be saved in some other way than by turning to Christ?[/QUOTE]
glfredrick
New Member
Calvin does not equal Calvinism...
John Calvin wrote prodigiously, but he did not write the TULIP of Calvinism. If you are going to argue the issues surrounding Calvinism, at least educate yourself on the topic so as to not fulfill this Proverb:
14:6-7 A scoffer seeks wisdom in vain,
but knowledge is easy for a man of understanding.
7 Leave the presence of a fool,
for there you do not meet words of knowledge.
Are you using the word 'saved' as synonymous with 'going to heaven'? If so, please show that premise to be true from scripture. Where do you see sōzō used in the eternal sense in context with belief of the gospel?
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Well, since those of the Doctrines of Grace (Reformed and Calvinists) agree that no man (mankind) will be saved apart from faith in Christ Jesus, which only is understood via the gospel message.. then yes.
That TRUTH, is scripturally correct, verifiable, and an established doctrine of Church. Thus Cals and Arm and Non-Cals all agree on this biblical truth.
Please, just answer my question. Where is the lie? How will they hear of Christ if Christians do not take the message to them?
Please, just go back and reread the lie:
"...a horrendous lie carried by the hyper Arminians today is that folks are going to burn in hell for all eternity if Christians fail in their duty to spread the gospel to as many as possible."
Please, just answer my question, show where sozo in used in the eternal sense in context with belief of the gospel.
believe that the Gospel is message that saves, That God uses his Spirit and the Bible to "save", but that it is the Elect of God who receive the faith/quickening to respond, but that all need to be preached to, as ONLY God knows his very elect..
That we are commissioned to proclaim Gospel to all nations/peoples, but that ALL who are lost are lost because that is their desire, following their own sinful natures...
...and what truth is that please?
Again, show from scripture that 'being saved' is synonymous with 'going to heaven'.