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Is infant baptism from the Bible?

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AustinC

Well-Known Member
Judas, before he would "fall away" (Acts 1:25), was called the following by our Blessed Lord / Scripture:

- A "disciple" (Mt. 10:1)
- An "Apostle" (Mt. 10:2-4)
- "One of the twelve" (Luke 22:47)
- Sent "to proclaim the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:2)
- "Chosen" (John 6:70)
- A "sheep" (Mt. 10:16)
- A "friend" (Mt. 26:50)

Furthermore, Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ...

"So Jesus said to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" Matthew 19:28

In Psalm 41:9 ---> “Yea, mine own familiar friend in whom I trusted which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.”


Calvinism destroyed ---> 1. One cannot "fall away" (Acts 1:25) from that which one never belonged. 2. Judas not only resisted grace, but he resisted He who is the source of all grace.




This is a non-sequitur (straw man).

Incidentally, if man is not free, he cannot be culpable for his actions, whether they be good or evil acts. Thus man cannot be rewarded for good acts, nor condemned for evil acts. You cannot have a moral universe without being free. Furthermore, if man is not free, he is not able to love. God did not make androids; He made man.

Paradoxically, to believe otherwise, makes the Incarnation itself an act contra-Logos.


"Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having." - C.S. Lewis
Is a man free if he has no capacity to save himself?
If he has no capacity to save himself and someone chooses to graciously save him, would that man stop honoring the one who saved him?

Why are you looking for a means by which you can run away from the God who saved you?

There is no sense in your argument. People whom God chooses to save do not "fall away." They persevere for they are saved, not by their own works, but because God has saved them.

Why do you reject such a glorious promise by God to you? I don't understand why you insist on arguing for people running away from their Savior. Explain your love of falling away.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
By the way, CS Lewis was an excellent apologist, but he was a poor theologian. His ideas on free will are horribly wrong.
 

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Is a man free if he has no capacity to save himself?
If he has no capacity to save himself and someone chooses to graciously save him, would that man stop honoring the one who saved him?

Why are you looking for a means by which you can run away from the God who saved you?

There is no sense in your argument. People whom God chooses to save do not "fall away." They persevere for they are saved, not by their own works, but because God has saved them.

Why do you reject such a glorious promise by God to you? I don't understand why you insist on arguing for people running away from their Savior. Explain your love of falling away.

The idea that God "chooses" who to save is preposterous. He is open to saving ALL people, not just certain people. The question of whether to accept or reject Christ's saving grace belongs to the individual person, not the deity who shows favor of some over others.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
The idea that God "chooses" who to save is preposterous. He is open to saving ALL people, not just certain people. The question of whether to accept or reject Christ's saving grace belongs to the individual person, not the deity who shows favor of some over others.
Do you reject every verses in scripture that says we are chosen, elect and predestined? What is preposterous is turning away from scripture to say God doesn't choose.

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

John 10:3-4,25-29 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Romans 9:8-24 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you reject every verses in scripture that says we are chosen, elect and predestined? What is preposterous is turning away from scripture to say God doesn't choose.

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

John 10:3-4,25-29 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Romans 9:8-24 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

God commands all mankind not to sin, Commands all to Love God and Love neighbor. The fact that if anyone sins itself implies the person is not doing as GOD WANTS AND DESIRES.

So understanding what God wants and desires is not problem or mystery unless you think God is deceptive and lies about his wishes and acts disingenuous. Which would be laughable from an almighty God.

At that point it would just be a joke like a dictator having to justify himself for vilifying or hating anyone.

God is not a coward, God is not a Liar, His command is TRUE.

We can start with your theoretical "Reprobate", Has this person done something GOD does not want them to do? Has this person sinned? Again sin implies going against the desire and wishes of God.

God wants, desires, wishes for no one to sin. He does not want you to sin today, tomorrow, or ever again.

Anyone with a lick of common sense hears what God commands and equates it to his actual desire, unless a person is duped into believing God himself operates with a fallen human nature and privileged to act in evil.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"Judas was created to betray the Creator."


You can't betray a person unless you were legit part of their crew.

Judas is the epitome of betrayal. If he was never legit then its just a spy or infiltrator doing his thing. That is not a TRAITOR.

To be a TRAITOR and BETRAY you have to be 100% on the right team.
Judas was a false Apostle from get go!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
God commands all mankind not to sin, Commands all to Love God and Love neighbor. The fact that if anyone sins itself implies the person is not doing as GOD WANTS AND DESIRES.

So understanding what God wants and desires is not problem or mystery unless you think God is deceptive and lies about his wishes and acts disingenuous. Which would be laughable from an almighty God.

At that point it would just be a joke like a dictator having to justify himself for vilifying or hating anyone.

God is not a coward, God is not a Liar, His command is TRUE.

We can start with your theoretical "Reprobate", Has this person done something GOD does not want them to do? Has this person sinned? Again sin implies going against the desire and wishes of God.

God wants, desires, wishes for no one to sin. He does not want you to sin today, tomorrow, or ever again.

Anyone with a lick of common sense hears what God commands and equates it to his actual desire, unless a person is duped into believing God himself operates with a fallen human nature and privileged to act in evil.
Is it the will of God that none eternally perish?
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
God commands all mankind not to sin, Commands all to Love God and Love neighbor. The fact that if anyone sins itself implies the person is not doing as GOD WANTS AND DESIRES.

So understanding what God wants and desires is not problem or mystery unless you think God is deceptive and lies about his wishes and acts disingenuous. Which would be laughable from an almighty God.

At that point it would just be a joke like a dictator having to justify himself for vilifying or hating anyone.

God is not a coward, God is not a Liar, His command is TRUE.

We can start with your theoretical "Reprobate", Has this person done something GOD does not want them to do? Has this person sinned? Again sin implies going against the desire and wishes of God.

God wants, desires, wishes for no one to sin. He does not want you to sin today, tomorrow, or ever again.

Anyone with a lick of common sense hears what God commands and equates it to his actual desire, unless a person is duped into believing God himself operates with a fallen human nature and privileged to act in evil.
What did you read in scripture that I posted, utilyan? You and Adonia are arguing against the word of God.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What did you read in scripture that I posted, utilyan? You and Adonia are arguing against the word of God.

Amen every verse agrees with me.

You are disobeying his direct COMMAND.

God commands all mankind not to sin, Commands all to Love God and Love neighbor.


From the beginning the Devil does what he can to distort a person into believing the command of God.

God really didn't tell you not to eat from the tree, SURELY nothing wrong with ignoring his command.

Same goes here.


GOD commands ALL mankind not to sin.

Acts 17

30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”


God wants, desires, wishes for no one to sin. He does not want you to sin today, tomorrow, or ever again.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Amen every verse agrees with me.

You are disobeying his direct COMMAND.

God commands all mankind not to sin, Commands all to Love God and Love neighbor.


From the beginning the Devil does what he can to distort a person into believing the command of God.

God really didn't tell you not to eat from the tree, SURELY nothing wrong with ignoring his command.

Same goes here.


GOD commands ALL mankind not to sin.

Acts 17

30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”


God wants, desires, wishes for no one to sin. He does not want you to sin today, tomorrow, or ever again.
Great, you are therefore a Calvinist. God chooses, God elects, God predestines. That's what the verses say.
 

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you reject every verses in scripture that says we are chosen, elect and predestined?

Oh no, another Calvinist. Do you reject these scripture verses?

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

John 1:12

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

1 Timothy 2:4

Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 10:13

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Acts 2:38

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And then we have the thieves on the cross, detailing how one chooses Jesus and the other rejects him. (Luke 23)

39
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40
But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?

41
We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. ”

And finally at the end Jesus answers him in reply.

43
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

All those verses show people choosing God, not the other way around.
 
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utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Great, you are therefore a Calvinist. God chooses, God elects, God predestines. That's what the verses say.

Thats fine Austin, our disagreement is with whom, because you are the one stepping out of line to presume non-elect.

You are starting with an accusation, your own personal judgement, on a call only God can make.

GOD commands ALL mankind not to sin, Ergo who does he desire as elect?

Heres the question that makes calvinist shrivel up....... Does God WANT and DESIRE for you to sin today or tomorrow?

Does he REALLY, REALLY want you to sin today?
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Oh no, another Calvinist. Do you reject these scripture verses?

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

John 1:12

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

1 Timothy 2:4

Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 10:13

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Acts 2:38

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And then we have the thieves on the cross, detailing how one chooses Jesus and the other rejects him. (Luke 23)

39
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40
But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?

41
We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. ”

And finally at the end Jesus answers him in reply.

43
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

All those verses show people choosing God, not the other way around.
Actually all those passages, in context, show God's Sovereign choice.
Sadly, it seems you reject context as a means of understanding God's word.
All the verses you have prooftexted actually condemn your man-centered thinking.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Thats fine Austin, our disagreement is with whom, because you are the one stepping out of line to presume non-elect.

You are starting with an accusation, your own personal judgement, on a call only God can make.

GOD commands ALL mankind not to sin, Ergo who does he desire as elect?

Heres the question that makes calvinist shrivel up....... Does God WANT and DESIRE for you to sin today or tomorrow?

Does he REALLY, REALLY want you to sin today?
Scripture has proved you and your church to be wrong. You simply fight against the bit.
 
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