One of the problems of Calvinism is that it falsely calls faith a work, while the scriptures always contrast faith to works. With this line of reasoning stealing could be called working. You steal a car and are caught by the police. You go to court. You tell the judge you did not steal the car, you earned it, you did a lot of work breaking into that car, so you earned it. Try that some time and see if the judge is convinced with your astounding logic.
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Is Irresistible Grace "resistible"?
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
This is a fairly poor representation of the Gospel. Certainly John 3:16 contains many elements of the Gospel, but it is not--in and of itself--the Gospel.
Any true articulation of the Gospel must have at least these four elements:
1. God is absolutely holy and perfect and is entirely angry not only at the sins we commit, but at who we are
2. Man was created to be God's representative (Image bearer), like a Governor representing a King in colonial America days. We, the representative, rebelled against the King, which is treason. God demands our death for our treason.
3. Christ came to live a perfect life (a life we could not live) to "undo," in a sense, the fall of Adam and gain righteousness for us that we could never have earned ourselves. He also went to the Cross, willingly, so that He would die as a substitute for all His people.
4. Response is required on our part. The Gospel does not "happen" to us and everyone is "OK." No, we must respond to God, His work and His grace, by repentance and faith. Our salvation is appropriated by faith (as opposed to works) and we must live with Christ as our King, rather than ourselves.
That's the Gospel in a nutshell.
The Archangel
Are you serious? What Winman said is THE gospel.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and in which you stand; By which also you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
John 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
glfredrick
New Member
Go back a couple of posts and deal with the material I presented, please.
You are avoiding dealing with some very pertinent facts. Why?
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but you are incorrect. John 3:16 is not in and of itself the Gospel.
There are numerous differences between the 1 Corinthians passage you posted and the John 3:16 passage. John 3:16 never mentions sin; 1 Corinthians 15 does.
You mention John 3:18, which is good, but--in the discussion of John 3:16 being the gospel or not--John 3:18 is facts not in evidence because it is not John 3:16.
If you notice, 1 Corinthians 15 has the elements I mentioned: Received (response); Christ dying (Christ); Christ dies for our sins (man); all this is "according to the scriptures" (God).
John 3:16 in itself does not contain these four things. The surrounding passage does....but that wasn't the discussion.
Now, I will gladly agree that Winman's subsequent discussion of the Gospel is fairly accurate. However, he quoted John 3:16 and then stated that was the Gospel. John 3:16 is not the Gospel and, in the effort of being exegetical, you cannot get all Winman said (no matter how accurate) from this one verse.
The Gospel is not one verse. The Gospel is derived from a whole-Bible theology (or biblical theology).
The Archangel
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preacher4truth
Active Member
The Gospel is the Death, Burial, Resurrection of Christ, whether we "receive" it or not. That is the Gospel period. Nothing else needs to be added to it.
It's still the Gospel without mans Response. Dying is in there twice. Where is the burial and Resurrection in that message? It is missing the elements that are its necessary components or it is not the Gospel at all. The according to the Scriptures refers to His Death, burial, and Resurrection Some also include and that he was "seen."
John 3:16 is not the Gospel. The attempt to make it such is mere sentimentalism and not at all theologically accurate.
I held a revival several months back, not one person could tell me what the Gospel was. It is plainly laid out in Scripture in 1 Corinthians 15.
It amazes me other baptists slam me for asking what it is when it is our privilege to know it, and speak it, and we should jump at any chance!
Any of us who got it wrong need to lose our pride and accept the fact we were wrong and learn what it is, and where it is.
You are not going to get anywhere with these Calvinists Amy, they think they know everything and everybody else is an idiot. And most would argue with a fencepost.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Shocking, isn't it?
Partially true. But, salvation from what?
Not in the least.
The Archangel
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Neither is the Death, Burial and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is the Gospel.
convicted1
Guest
Rom. 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The word gospel may be translated to mean good news, but its more than good news!! It is the power of Godunto salvation!!
Here is a pasage in Titus that ch. 2. I will use the ESV for. I bought this translation yesterday, wanting to read something different, and from what I have read, its a really good reading bible!!
Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
The Gospel is the power of God through Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection!! Praise His sweet name!!
i am I am's!!
Willis
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The word gospel may be translated to mean good news, but its more than good news!! It is the power of Godunto salvation!!
Here is a pasage in Titus that ch. 2. I will use the ESV for. I bought this translation yesterday, wanting to read something different, and from what I have read, its a really good reading bible!!
Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
The Gospel is the power of God through Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection!! Praise His sweet name!!
i am I am's!!
Willis
I believe it is all encompassed in "...He gave His only begotten Son...". John 3:16 is not an end all, be all...but the Gospel is contained within.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Uh, no. It can be used as a platform to explain the Gospel. It is not contained in it no matter how much you claim it to be in there. No one ,when hearing only John 3:16 would know that He died, was buried, and rose again, and was sighted just from that one verse.
So you are saying there is no salvation by grace through faith anywhere in John 3:16? What is God's love? What did He give the world? What is required to receive eternal life?
I have yet to meet a person who has no idea who Jesus is / was in this day and age.
Unbelievable, you would correct the very words of our Lord Jesus Christ when he was telling Nicodemus how to be saved. This is arrogance to it's extreme! Too bad you Calvinists weren't there to tell Jesus how to properly present the gospel. Incredible pride and arrogance!
quantumfaith
Active Member
This is the message I most glean by some, but not all of the "reformed" theologians present here on BB
preacher4truth
Active Member
It's plain and simply in 1 Corinthians. That you don't know what the Gospel is doesn't surprise me in the least.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Pay attention, here it comes:
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
Curse me all you want. Blessing back to you. Called names and persecuted by a preacher for preaching the Gospel. How sad.
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I don't think that is what he is saying. I know that I'd agree with everything you've said, with one possible exception: This is not necessarily contained in John 3:16 in and of itself.
Again, there is a context to John 3:16 and the surrounding context gives the meaning to this particular verse. Of course, the passage as a whole (16-21) leads us to these conclusions. But, these conclusions are based on the Bible as a whole. Paul's development of these truths, Peter's development of these truths, John's epistolary development of these truths--they all inform our understanding of this verse.
So, in a vacuum, divorced of any context, John 3:16 does not say what you (or Winman) have suggested it says.
While this is likely true, having an idea of who Jesus was or is is not the issue. Having the biblical understanding of who Jesus was and is is the issue. This is why persons such as myself are arguing that John 3:16 is not the gospel in and of itself. A whole-bible theology, a biblical theology is necessary to properly articulate the Gospel and deal with issues as the holiness of God, the sin of man, etc.
The Archangel
Verses 3 - 8 were the first creeds passed on verbally (statement of faith) through the early church, it is not the Gospel message. If it were, only the 500+ people who saw Christ post resurrection know the true Gospel, and faith in Peter, James, Paul and 500 people are needed to be saved in addition to His death burial and resurrection.
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