Is Irresistible Grace "resistible"?

[Gabriel Elijah]

I'm all in for a reality show... :laugh:

Hahahaha!!!! Now that would be hilarious!!! I’d never miss an episode!:laugh:

 

[webdog]

Hahahaha!!!! Now that would be hilarious!!! I’d never miss an episode!:laugh:

Maybe it could be called Big Brother...In Christ

Then again, I don't know if I could live under the same roof with Luke...not due to theology, but he said he's a pretty big guy...and I eat a ton, so it may end up like Survivor

 

[Winman]

Trying to catch up here, had to read about six pages of posts. I just want to respond to whoever said free will does not truly exist. That is unscriptural, there are many examples of God telling men to make a choice of their own free will in the scriptures.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

This is very clear, and concerns salvation, Joshua is telling the people to make a decision of whom they will serve, whether the false gods their fathers served in Egypt, or the true God, the Lord.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This is clear as well, Moses is telling the people to make a choice. They can choose between life and death. The Calvinist will say the unregenerate cannot choose life, but Moses said they could.

Being that both Moses and Joshua were prophets inspired by the Holy Spirit, I will trust what they say over the doctrines of uninspired men.

I think it incredible that people can make statements saying God can be insincere when he calls some men, that he really doesn't mean it, and that when he does really mean it they will be irresistably drawn. God simply does not make insincere statements, that would be dishonest, and God cannot lie.

 

[glfredrick]

Trying to catch up here, had to read about six pages of posts. I just want to respond to whoever said free will does not truly exist. That is unscriptural, there are many examples of God telling men to make a choice of their own free will in the scriptures.

I agree... But they are not strictly interpreted as free will-centered passages. And as far as I can tell, the actual words "free will" never exist in the KJV Scripture together in any passage. They do exist in the ASV in two places, Philemon 1:14 and Ezra 7:14. No other places in no other Scripture that is regularly used on this board.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

This is very clear, and concerns salvation, Joshua is telling the people to make a decision of whom they will serve, whether the false gods their fathers served in Egypt, or the true God, the Lord.

This passage in Joshua is a great passage, but not salvific. It speaks of service to God -- not salvation in God. Your saying below that the passage IS salvific is taking it out of context. According to that passage, we would have some form of "works" salvation and neither of us are wanting to go in that direction -- at least I am not.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This is clear as well, Moses is telling the people to make a choice. They can choose between life and death. The Calvinist will say the unregenerate cannot choose life, but Moses said they could.

Human life... Again, like the Joshua passage above, how is this passage speaking to salvation?

Perhaps we need to nail down something concerning salvation -- it is not merely coming to God, nor serving God that saves, is it? I thought that the Scriptures were clear... 10 "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12 (KJV)


Do you believe that, or is there salvation in some other way?

Being that both Moses and Joshua were prophets inspired by the Holy Spirit, I will trust what they say over the doctrines of uninspired men.

I am not disputing that these were inspired prophets. But I am disputing whether or not the passages you reference are to salvation.

I think it incredible that people can make statements saying God can be insincere when he calls some men, that he really doesn't mean it, and that when he does really mean it they will be irresistably drawn. God simply does not make insincere statements, that would be dishonest, and God cannot lie.

And, just above, you state that GOD calls some men... Thanks for coming over to the dark side! :laugh:

That is exactly the Calvinist position that you are trying to refute.

I would say that God means it every time He calls, but His timing is not ours. I am living proof of that.

 

[glfredrick]

I have posted a call for those in favor of the free will position to post the Bible verses that CLEARLY demonstrate that free will is THE position.

So far, a few have chosen to post a few verses, but the verses are either not "salvific" (we DO have an exercise of our will, but for salvation is another thing entirely) or have some interpretation issues in context.

I believe that my thesis is correct -- there is no particular verse in the entirety of the Bible -- apart from the pre-fall account of Adam and Eve -- that demonstrably offers a free will position. If there were, I am certain that the persons in this debate would have been more than happy to post the verses. They do otherwise...

But, what of the reverse? What is good for the goose is good for the gander, correct? Are there verses of Scripture that show a position where CLEARLY God's sovereignty is the topic of the passage in a salvific sense?

Post away!

John 1:12-13 (NASB)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born , not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Romans 8:28-35 (NASB) 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised , who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ

Gal 1:1-4 (NASB)
1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me, 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age , according to the will of our God and Father,

Gal 1:11-16 (NASB)
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; 14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen , being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions. 15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,

Gal 4:3-9 (NASB)
3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

2 Peter 1:1-4 (NASB)1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence . 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

 

[Luke2427]

Trying to catch up here, had to read about six pages of posts. I just want to respond to whoever said free will does not truly exist. That is unscriptural, there are many examples of God telling men to make a choice of their own free will in the scriptures.

The error you make is that you assume things that are not so. You ASSUME these scriptures indicate free will. You do this because you cannot imagine the idea of choice apart from free will. So every time you see the word "choose" in Scripture you immediately think- SEE! There's free will.

The problem is that your assumption is wrong.

Choice does NOT mean FREE will. It just means "will".

Men do what they most WANT to do. They choose what they most WANT.

But their "want" or desire is not free.

Their desires are molded by forces outside of themselves.

For example: If you are like most people I know and I sat before you a plate of calf liver and cooked spinach and another plate with with a cheeseburger on it, you would CHOOSE the cheeseburger.

Was your will FREE? No. It was not. It was bound by your desire, your tastes, and these are forces that are controlled by forces outside of your self.

YOU did not arrange your taste buds on your tongue. YOU did not decide into which culture you would be born that would affect your tastes. Forces outside of you control your desires.

You CHOSE- no doubt. But CERTAINLY not because your will is FREE. Your will is bound to your desire and your desire is controlled by something else. That is the opposite of FREE.

Sinners are sinners because they desire SIN. They have no DESIRE for righteousness. Their will is not FREE. They CHOOSE- sure. But they CHOOSE what they DESIRE and their DESIRE is bound by their NATURE something that CONTROLS them.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

This is very clear, and concerns salvation, Joshua is telling the people to make a decision of whom they will serve, whether the false gods their fathers served in Egypt, or the true God, the Lord.

Everybody knows that, but it does not teach FREE WILL at all.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This is clear as well, Moses is telling the people to make a choice. They can choose between life and death. The Calvinist will say the unregenerate cannot choose life, but Moses said they could.

Being that both Moses and Joshua were prophets inspired by the Holy Spirit, I will trust what they say over the doctrines of uninspired men.

No you don't trust the Word of God. You trust those passages that you think teach what you WANT to believe.

You CERTAINLY don't trust the Word of God when it says- "The heart is desperately wicked, deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS."
Because if you trusted the Word of God when it said that you would know, believe and understand that man's will is NOT free.

You don't trust the Word of God when it says, "There is none that seeketh after God... None that doeth good, no not one."
Because if you trusted the Word of God when it said that you would know, believe and understand that man's will is NOT free.

You don't trust the Word of God when it says "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God...neither CAN HE..."
Because if you trusted the Word of God when it said that you would know, believe and understand that man's will is NOT free.

No, Winman, you do not trust the Word of God- you trust what you WANT to believe IN SPITE of what the Word of God teaches.

I think it incredible that people can make statements saying God can be insincere when he calls some men, that he really doesn't mean it, and that when he does really mean it they will be irresistably drawn. God simply does not make insincere statements, that would be dishonest, and God cannot lie.

I think that would be incredible too if there were ANYBODY on earth who believes that. Fortunately I doubt that there are. I explained this very clearly to Willis a couple of days ago.

 

[John Toppass]

The error you make is that you assume things that are not so. You ASSUME these scriptures indicate free will. You do this because you cannot imagine the idea of choice apart from free will. So every time you see the word "choose" in Scripture you immediately think- SEE! There's free will.

The problem is that your assumption is wrong.

Choice does NOT mean FREE will. It just means "will".

Men do what they most WANT to do. They choose what they most WANT.

But their "want" or desire is not free.

Their desires are molded by forces outside of themselves.

For example: If you are like most people I know and I sat before you a plate of calf liver and cooked spinach and another plate with with a cheeseburger on it, you would CHOOSE the cheeseburger.

Was your will FREE? No. It was not. It was bound by your desire, your tastes, and these are forces that are controlled by forces outside of your self.

YOU did not arrange your taste buds on your tongue. YOU did not decide into which culture you would be born that would affect your tastes. Forces outside of you control your desires.

You CHOSE- no doubt. But CERTAINLY not because your will is FREE. Your will is bound to your desire and your desire is controlled by something else. That is the opposite of FREE.

Sinners are sinners because they desire SIN. They have no DESIRE for righteousness. Their will is not FREE. They CHOOSE- sure. But they CHOOSE what they DESIRE and their DESIRE is bound by their NATURE something that CONTROLS them.



Everybody knows that, but it does not teach FREE WILL at all.



No you don't trust the Word of God. You trust those passages that you think teach what you WANT to believe.

You CERTAINLY don't trust the Word of God when it says- "The heart is desperately wicked, deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS."
Because if you trusted the Word of God when it said that you would know, believe and understand that man's will is NOT free.

You don't trust the Word of God when it says, "There is none that seeketh after God... None that doeth good, no not one."
Because if you trusted the Word of God when it said that you would know, believe and understand that man's will is NOT free.

You don't trust the Word of God when it says "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God...neither CAN HE..."
Because if you trusted the Word of God when it said that you would know, believe and understand that man's will is NOT free.

No, Winman, you do not trust the Word of God- you trust what you WANT to believe IN SPITE of what the Word of God teaches.



I think that would be incredible too if there were ANYBODY on earth who believes that. Fortunately I doubt that there are. I explained this very clearly to Willis a couple of days ago.

I do not think Winman has assumed anything wrong here. As usual, it is you that has made the wrong assumption. Now you will probably go into a nonsensical tirade of belittling and name calling to prove the point you have never proved. Go ahead prove me right.

I Truly Wish You a Merry Christmas!

 

[Luke2427]

I do not think Winman has assumed anything wrong here. As usual, it is you that has made the wrong assumption. Now you will probably go into a nonsensical tirade of belittling and name calling to prove the point you have never proved. Go ahead prove me right.

I Truly Wish You a Merry Christmas!

If you are going to post- make a point relevant to the discussion.

Saying "Ah AhAAAA- YOU ARE!!" is not a point.

Show how I am doing it or don't post- or continue to make irrelevant posts- it's a free country (Thank God for using Calvin and George Washington and other s to make it so!:laugh

Merry Christmas to you too, John.raying:

 

[John Toppass]

If you are going to post- make a point relevant to the discussion.

Saying "Ah AhAAAA- YOU ARE!!" is not a point.

Show how I am doing it or don't post- or continue to make irrelevant posts- it's a free country (Thank God for using Calvin and George Washington and other s to make it so!:laugh

Merry Christmas to you too, John.raying:

Thank you, Luke.
I believe Winman has adequately stated the truth for the most part. I do not believe it is needed to repeat the keystrokes. Your civility is noticed and appreciated.
BTW Calvin had nothing to do with this free country only those who idolize him, insist that he is.

 

[Luke2427]

Thank you, Luke.
I believe Winman has adequately stated the truth for the most part. I do not believe it is needed to repeat the keystrokes. Your civility is noticed and appreciated.
BTW Calvin had nothing to do with this free country only those who idolize him, insist that he is.

John it is a dangerous thing for you to keep disrespecting the memory of Calvin.

You might as well curse your own heritage. The fact is that the pilgrims came here BECAUSE they were Calvinists. The fact of the matter is that the Puritans who followed and had much to do with the carving out of this nation were Calvinists and came over here BECAUSE they were Calvinists.

The fact of the matter is that King George called the American Revolution the Presbyterian war.

The fact of the matter is that MOST of the founders were Calvinists.

The fact of the matter is that our founders looked to Calvin's Geneva for a general model for our own government and that our Government is designed after the Presbyterian form of Church Government.

The fact of the matter is that the Great Awakening had much to do with uniting this country so that it COULD fight for its independence and the Great Awakening was almost completely a Calvinistic revival.

To REFUSE to give honor to whom honor is due is a very, very dishonorable thing.

 

[John Toppass]

John it is a dangerous thing for you to keep disrespecting the memory of Calvin.

You might as well curse your own heritage. The fact is that the pilgrims came here BECAUSE they were Calvinists. The fact of the matter is that the Puritans who followed and had much to do with the carving out of this nation were Calvinists and came over here BECAUSE they were Calvinists.

The fact of the matter is that King George called the American Revolution the Presbyterian war.

The fact of the matter is that MOST of the founders were Calvinists.

The fact of the matter is that our founders looked to Calvin's Geneva for a general model for our own government and that our Government is designed after the Presbyterian form of Church Government.

The fact of the matter is that the Great Awakening had much to do with uniting this country so that it COULD fight for its independence and the Great Awakening was almost completely a Calvinistic revival.

To REFUSE to give honor to whom honor is due is a very, very dishonorable thing.

If I don't, what are you going to do? Throw me in a furnace or maybe a lions den! What is the penalty for refusing to worship Calvin? I plead guilty!

 

[Luke2427]

If I don't, what are you going to do? Throw me in a furnace or maybe a lions den! What is the penalty for refusing to worship Calvin? I plead guilty!

Nobody said to worship him. I used biblical language- give honor to whom honor is due.

You refuse to do that then it is between you and your Maker- the Maker who raised up Calvin to give you much of what you enjoy today.

God told Abraham, "I will bless them that bless you and curse them that curse you."

That does not apply just to Abraham nor just to the Jews- but to everybody God raises up like Abraham to do great things for God.

Calvin is one of those men for sure. For you to refuse him the honor due him, I believe based on my understanding of Scripture, is to incur upon yourself the curse of God.

I recommend you not do it so flippantly.

 

[John Toppass]

Nobody said to worship him. I used biblical language- give honor to whom honor is due.

You refuse to do that then it is between you and your Maker- the Maker who raised up Calvin to give you much of what you enjoy today.

God told Abraham, "I will bless them that bless you and curse them that curse you."

That does not apply just to Abraham nor just to the Jews- but to everybody God raises up like Abraham to do great things for God.

Calvin is one of those men for sure. For you to refuse him the honor due him, I believe based on my understanding of Scripture, is to incur upon yourself the curse of God.

I recommend you not do it so flippantly.

Could you show some scripture that says Calvin is one of the men you are talking about?

 

[Luke2427]

Could you show some scripture that says Calvin is one of the men you are talking about?

There is no point in going any further with this. You make your bed howsoever you choose. But expect to lay in it.

There is no Scripture saying that God raised up Charles Spurgeon or D. L. Moody- but if you think refusing to give honor to them will cause God to smile upon you- you are dumb as a box of rocks.

Calvin was used more mightily than even them.

Romans 13:7 says to give honor to whom honor is due- that is plenty enough.

 

[John Toppass]

There is no point in going any further with this. You make your bed howsoever you choose. But expect to lay in it.

There is no Scripture saying that God raised up Charles Spurgeon or D. L. Moody- but if you think refusing to give honor to them will cause God to smile upon you- you are dumb as a box of rocks.

Calvin was used more mightily than even them.

Romans 13:7 says to give honor to whom honor is due- that is plenty enough.

Luke, thanks for proving my point. Until you get control of your anger and stop demanding everyone should believe like you do, you will never put to good use the education you claim to have received.
My prayers are for you.

 

[Amy.G]

Calvin was used more mightily than even them.

Romans 13:7 says to give honor to whom honor is due- that is plenty enough.

Romans 13:7 is referring to government authorities, not preachers.

Pulling verses out of context does not help your argument.

 

[John Toppass]

Romans 13:7 is referring to government authorities, not preachers.

Pulling verses out of context does not help your argument.

Amy read again, make sure you are giving the right post credit and then please edit. Luke was the one who misquoted, and I for one know better than to not check his posts.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy read again, make sure you are giving the right post credit and then please edit.

I am so sorry John. I don't know how that happened. I will correct it immediately.



Edit: Ok. It did it on this post too. I'll just copy and paste so it comes out right.

 

[John Toppass]

I am so sorry John. I don't know how that happened. I will correct it immediately.



Edit: Ok. It did it on this post too. I'll just copy and paste so it comes out right.

actually it maybe a problem with the forum setup. Just maybe no one is at fault but the forum setup. For some odd reason.

 

[webdog]

It's a problem with how Luke replies to posts. I have asked him repeatedly to fix how he does it to no avail.

If you notice, this only occurs when he responds to a post and uses the quote function. All further posts are affected and it become chaos as to who said what :BangHead: