is it biblical to charge

And now: presenting the Baptist board equivalent of stirring up a hornets nest...or something

I am a big fan of "Freely you have received, freely give" and "It is more blessed to give than to receive." I think there are way too many "unmuzzled ox" stampeding through the Church, and nowhere near enough members of "a holy priesthood/royal priesthood/holy nation/kings and priests."

EG: Christian CDs plastered with big copyright notices and "Thou shalt not steal" make me so sick that last year I brought a stand-alone CD recorder, plugged my guitar in, and recorded a batch of hymns (all public domain music for those © fans here.) Actually, I really should repent...I put a big copyright notice on the back of my CD too...It says "© NONE" I also put a note in the fine print along the lines of "if you want to copy feel free." I give the CDs to anyone that wants one...and some to people that don't I discourage people giving anything for the CD, however I take it if they can beat me in arm-wrestle and immediately buy more blank CDs.

In last 6 years or so I have been Church guitar player, Sunday school teacher, young peoples' Bible study writer/leader, bus driver, preached a few times...and probably a couple of other things that I can not think of this time of the day. No way could I ever to it for pay though.

Oh, and for those wondering (I can hear you thinking )..Yes, my visits to and purchases from the local Christian bookshop has been going down in line with the above...Thanks for asking

Pete

 

To reiterate my previous post:

Need legal help? See a lawyer.
Need medical help? See a doctor.
Need financial help? See a financial specialist.
Need mental help? See a mental health specialist.

It's unfortunate that professional counselling is so belittled by Christian community. If the medical profession was belittled in such a way, we'd have a lot of spirit-filled dead folks.

 

Johnv,

I have a question about how you relate three of your previous statements to one another. You have said:

1. "If I need spiritual help, I'll seek a pastor."

But then you said:

2. "If I need psychological help, I'll seek a professional counsellor."

3. "Need mental help? See a mental health specialist."

How do you distinguish between "spiritual" help on the one hand and "psychological" or "mental" help on the other? Can such a clear-cut distinction really be so easily made? Isn't this what the debate is really about?

Pastork

 

The issue of it being difficult to distinguish is different than the issue of seeking professional help when needed. Certinaly, being able to distinguish between them is important.

 

Johnv,

I disagree. If it is your contention that we should go to a professional counsellor or mental health specialist when we have a mental rather than a spiritual problem, then this requires that we be able to distinguish between the two. I ask again, How do you suggest that we make such a distinction? How else will we be expected to know when "professional help is needed"?

Pastork

[ December 12, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Pastork ]

 

Recently a church near a friend of mine held a Mens ministry seminar. My friend was invited, but because he is poor, he could not afford the registration fee. Resultingly he could not go. He asked me if I think it is o.k for churches to "sell" the word of God. I said no it is not. None of the churches in the bible are recorded as charging any one for teaching of the Word.

The problem is that the modern church bases itself in structure and organisation on the Industrial Capatalism model used by those in the world to run companies. The early church ran as a Co-operative. So should we.

 

G'day Ben. Mens' dinner at Church I used to go to charged $10 a head, however the bloke running it also said "If you cannot afford it, don't worry, your attendance is more important than the money."

I think Keith Green was very close to the mark with his "what you can afford" policy, however I think the best way is "what you want to give"

Pete

 

I think that this is important for people to understand.

Many, many problems, say even the vast majority, involve a spiritual issue in which the answer is in the Bible and submitting to the Holy Spirit. The Pastor or wise counselor using the Bible will be effective. I would even say that they will be more effective because they go to the core of the problem.

But, if someone has a serious mental illness, then they need to go to a Psychologist. Yes, I would go to one who uses a Biblical model, but he also needs the expertise.

I personally think that the Church needs to be training lay people to provide the more common type of counseling and provide the facilities for such.

Charlie

 

I'd like to respond to Johnv here. He wrote:

Need legal help? See a lawyer.
Need medical help? See a doctor.
Need financial help? See a financial specialist.
Need mental help? See a mental health specialist.


Lawyers cost $100 an hour and up.
Best bet? Ask God for help first. Ask HIM to show you the way through whatever situation you are in. Very often lawyers are not necessary. If they are, God will provide the money needed.

Medical help? Obey the Bible first. Go to the elders of the church and ask for prayer. Because I did this, I am walking freely on an artificial joint that is almost 23 years old. It was expected to last 8-10 years, and, indeed, at 8 years had started to show very painful signs of failing. God knows your body better than anyone. And He doesn't kill or maim anyone accidently, either.

Financial help? First of all, you won't need it if you conduct yourself according to biblical principles. Secondly, I know from personal experience that if you NEED something, God will provide. However, if you do find yourself in financial straits for whatever reason, go to God first. Present the problem to Him. Yes, He already knows about it, but being open and honest is a good thing with God! Then, staying in close contact through prayer, follow His lead.

Mental help? Who else but the One who gave you your mind to begin with? That's silly to go to anyone else! They are primarily guessing! I would also suggest that mental 'problems' have their root in spiritual problems and our sin nature 9/10 of the time. It is very, very rarely that a mental condition is the result of a physical or chemical cause (unless you have been ingesting those chemicals!).

God did not allow us problems in our lives so that we could turn to other human beings and 'guess this might work' methods of trying to patch up the mess. He allows problems so that we will turn to HIM. He is the healer. He is the counsellor. He is the Creator and Redeemer. And He loves you. No counsellor in human flesh is ever going to love you as much, and most not at all.

Example:
my youngest daughter was quite a rebel for many years growing up. She is adopted and she and her adopted full-blood brother made a pact together that I knew nothing about, years ago -- I was not their 'real' mom so they didn't have to obey me! I had no idea why parenting those two was so difficult, but it was. Consistently I took it to the Lord in prayer and things did not seem to be getting any better. In fact, the boy ended up in a juvenile facility.

Answer to prayer? You bet! He was spinning out of control and I was a single parent and he NEEDED to be held accountable for the very air he was breathing at that point.

AND it broke up their little partnership.

The brother is a sophomore in college now and doing very well!

The sister still lives at home and when it became absolutely unbearable with her about three years ago (or was it two??), and after a number of paid counsellors had failed, I took her to something called Desert Gardens in Sacramento and they do 'prayer counselling'. I was, and still am, wary of many "fixes" dressed up in Christian terminology, but desperation is desperation...

She had an hour and a half session twice a month was all. Each time was one-on-one with a counsellor. For the first hour my daughter was encouraged to talk about anything that was bothering her at all. Anything. The last half hour was entirely in prayer, presenting it all to God.

That was it.

There was a noticeable difference in her after the first session. A more relaxed daughter emerged. We still had quite a ways to go, but I was quite surprised that just one session would result in a real difference.

Eight sessions later, with differences building, she came up to me and said, "Mom, I can't believe what a dork I've been."

Yes, we paid for that counselling. But the point is that anyone with patience and a real faith in God could have done the same for her.

We talk way to much and pray way too little. We do not have a problem Christ cannot handle.

And He is free. Except, of course, that your life MUST be His. Take care of that first and save yourself a bundle of money!

Well, of course, you may found you have given that money to others at different times as the Spirit has directed and it is not that much yours to save anymore! But that's all a matter of God's direction in your life, too -- not anyone else's.

 

This is a story about a man whose town was flooded. He was not concerned for his own life, because he knew the Lord, and he had faith that He would rescue him from the flood. When the flood waters came into the house, and the Lord had not yet rescued him, the man climbed on the roof and waited.

Soon the water was very high, and a man in a boat offered to take the man to safety. "Oh, no", he said. "I am certain that my Lord will not let me perish. Go, and help someone else." The waters continued to rise, and when only the rooftop was visible, a helicopter flew to the house and tried to save the man's life. Again, he refused, explaining that he was sure God would come to his rescue.

Minutes later, the flood waters swallowed him. When he met the Lord. he had only one question... "Why," he asked, "did you not rescue me?", to which He responded,

"I sent a boat and a helicopter. What were you expecting?"

 

I think the issue is a little more simple than most are willing to see from Scripture. There are two kinds of problems: physical and spiritual. Physical problems have definable and testable causes that can be treated medically. Spiritual problems are everything else. If you have a physical problem go to the doctor of the body. If you have a spiritual problem, go to the doctor of the soul. The best counselor is a trained theologian who can direct people to answers. Just as you do not go to a computer repairment to get your refrigerator fixed, so you should not go to the wrong person to get your "soul fixed."

Some pastors are not good counselors. That is fine. But that does not mean they are unqualified. They should surround themselves with people who know Scripture and can help people work through problems scripturally.

 

Helen this is the best advise I heard on the BB in a long time... Follow in the footstep of another that is following in the footsteps of the Lord!... Unless you have been tried in the fire and refined you don't know my God!... Christianity is not just a word... or a standing... Its puting Christ in action!... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist Brethren