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Is it BIBLICALLy Correct...

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RIPP0NWV

New Member
These are excellent posts, and just have one thing to add. If a person loses daily fellowship with the Lord, and the person is truly a Christian, the person will return to fellowship with the Lord in short order by the correction of the Holy Spirit. If the person returns to his old habits over a long period of time and does not repent with a Godly sorrow, he or she was never saved in the first place.
 
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DrJamesAch

New Member
RIPP0N said:
These are excellent posts, and just have one thing to add. If a person loses daily fellowship with the Lord, and the person is truly a Christian, the person will return to fellowship with the Lord in short order by the correction of the Holy Spirit. If the person returns to his old habits over a long period of time and does not repent with a Godly sorrow, he or she was never saved in the first place.
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Although this is a traditional Calvinist explanation of a wayward Christian, it is a dangerous assumption to make. The first half of this statement, I agree with. The latter half can only be proven by works, and that is an erroneous manner to determine whether someone is saved or not, because such a judgment would also require you to prove that you have put off the old man entirely including sins of omission and commission.

I do agree that there comes a point if a person has completely forsaken belief in Christ, not just by their actions but by their own profession of atheism or agnosticism, that one may very well ASSUME that this person was never saved: "For they no doubt would have continued with us" 1 John 2:19. But how do we know whether that person is REALLY comfortable in their sin? A believer that is sealed by the Holy Spirit will be grieved in his sinfulness (Gal 5:16-17), and if that person is not under the chastisement of God, he is a bastard (Heb 12:8). But we looking from the outside do not know how God is chastising that person.

There are some outward things that the Bible is explicit about where one can safely assume that a person was never truly saved. Murder is one of them. 1 John 3:15. But all throughout 1 John the grammatical tenses used are of a person that continues to relish in such hatred and practice without shame or conviction.

A non believer does not STRUGGLE with sin, and thus has no shame or guilt. This is not true of a believer. A believer may have "besetting sins" and struggles with doing what they don't want to do, and not doing what they DO want to do (Romans 7:15-17), but the fact that they are struggling with it is evidence that the Holy Spirit is present in their life, not evidence that they were never saved in the first place because they have not conquered the habit(s).

Lot was such an example of a person that NEVER demonstrated any fruit beyond believing in the God of Abraham:

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)" 2 Peter 2:6-8

The security of the believer is based on GOD sustaining us, not on our outward show. Yes, faith without works is dead, but "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Gal 3:3. James argued that works are an evidence of what professed faith SHOULD LOOK LIKE, it is not a proof-text of evidence that a person is or is not saved. James 1:27

One can assume that a person MAY or MAY NOT be saved, but to state CONCLUSIVELY that a person was never saved in the first place is a matter that too many are too quick to so judge.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DrJamesAch said:
Although this is a traditional Calvinist explanation of a wayward Christian, it is a dangerous assumption to make. The first half of this statement, I agree with. The latter half can only be proven by works, and that is an erroneous manner to determine whether someone is saved or not, because such a judgment would also require you to prove that you have put off the old man entirely including sins of omission and commission.

I do agree that there comes a point if a person has completely forsaken belief in Christ, not just by their actions but by their own profession of atheism or agnosticism, that one may very well ASSUME that this person was never saved: "For they no doubt would have continued with us" 1 John 2:19. But how do we know whether that person is REALLY comfortable in their sin? A believer that is sealed by the Holy Spirit will be grieved in his sinfulness (Gal 5:16-17), and if that person is not under the chastisement of God, he is a bastard (Heb 12:8). But we looking from the outside do not know how God is chastising that person.

There are some outward things that the Bible is explicit about where one can safely assume that a person was never truly saved. Murder is one of them. 1 John 3:15. But all throughout 1 John the grammatical tenses used are of a person that continues to relish in such hatred and practice without shame or conviction.

A non believer does not STRUGGLE with sin, and thus has no shame or guilt. This is not true of a believer. A believer may have "besetting sins" and struggles with doing what they don't want to do, and not doing what they DO want to do (Romans 7:15-17), but the fact that they are struggling with it is evidence that the Holy Spirit is present in their life, not evidence that they were never saved in the first place because they have not conquered the habit(s).

Lot was such an example of a person that NEVER demonstrated any fruit beyond believing in the God of Abraham:

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)" 2 Peter 2:6-8

The security of the believer is based on GOD sustaining us, not on our outward show. Yes, faith without works is dead, but "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Gal 3:3. James argued that works are an evidence of what professed faith SHOULD LOOK LIKE, it is not a proof-text of evidence that a person is or is not saved. James 1:27

One can assume that a person MAY or MAY NOT be saved, but to state CONCLUSIVELY that a person was never saved in the first place is a matter that too many are too quick to so judge.
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we still have the Sin principle dwelling in us after saved, our flesh, so we cans till commit all sorts of sins, the SIN that seems to indicate no real salvation took place is when the person professed at onetime to be "follower of jesus:, than in time totally rejects Him and the faith, made a profession, but was not one of the redeemed!

calvinist would that as one provong their election and calling was of the Lord by being found in the faith unto the end!
 
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