Alive in Christ
New Member
I would think that the only ones that would be against praying for the lost to be saved whould be the calvinists, because of thier erroneous view of salvation.
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Is it even Biblical to Pray for a Person’s Salvation?
- Thread starter IceAndFire1328
- Start date
saturneptune
New Member
IMO, this is an issue where Calvinists and hypers split. Yes, Calvinists believe in election from eternity past, you know, we have had endless threads on that. However, the Calvinist also believes in the commands of the Lord to go, which means visitation, missions, and evangelism. They do not believe the two concepts conflict. Although God elects them, they may come to Christ by the use of missions etc. In fact, the PCA (Presbyterian Church of America) spends more money on missionaries as a percentage of income than the SBC.
On the other hand, the hyper types, (in Baptist lingo, Primitive), believe God elected from eternity past (and this is the point of the split) certains ones, and it is therefore a waste of time and effort to visit, evangelize, etc. It appears to me they just ignore the last few verses of Matthew, and "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."
Alive in Christ
New Member
SaturnNeptune...
You posted...
Thank you for that information. I didnt know of the 2 views in calvinism..and i was once in the calvinist camp. Everything I was reading back then was of the the "hyper" catagory.
You posted...
Thank you for that information. I didnt know of the 2 views in calvinism..and i was once in the calvinist camp. Everything I was reading back then was of the the "hyper" catagory.
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salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
If any group believes in praying for the lost it would be calvinists, after all we know that God died for a number that no man can number but if God died for the whole world why pray at all, because their already saved.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Salzer Mtn...
you posted...
They are NOT already saved.
Christ did indeed die for all of the sins of the world. But salvation is only recieved through *faith*. The sinners faith.
The lost one makes the decision to place his/her faith in Christ, or to refuse to.
you posted...
They are NOT already saved.
Christ did indeed die for all of the sins of the world. But salvation is only recieved through *faith*. The sinners faith.
The lost one makes the decision to place his/her faith in Christ, or to refuse to.
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salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
The sinner has no faith 11 Thes 3:2. The faith of Gods elect is a gift of God Eph 2:8, is one of the fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22.
What?!?
Brother, you have stated here that Calvinists pray for the lost because only some people - that God pre-ordained to be saved - will be saved. Well, if He made two piles of humans - one really big pile to burn and one small pile to save - then wouldn't that mean that He's already made up His mind? If I were a Calvinist - why pray for my neighbor's salvation when - if he is not in the save pile, I'm praying against God's will and if he IS in the save pile, then his salvation is inevitable - he will be regenerated regardless of evangelism or prayer?
salzer mtn said:
EXACTLY! As a non-Calvinist who believes that God loves the whole world and sent His son to die for the sins of the whole world and that God "does not take delight in the destruction of the wicked" and has a desire that "none should perish" and that yes, despite that - more people will go to hell than heaven - I find I MUST pray for the lost to repent and believe motivated by the Holy Spirit and God's direction and gift. Salvation of the lost is NOT my hands, it's in God's hand. That's WHY I pray to Him to impart those in my circle who are lost with the gift of faith and with the desire for repentance.
I've never in my life heard of anyone who believes that because Jesus died for all and all are already saved or will be saved.
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salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
I did not state that only some would be saved, i said a number which no man could number. If there is an election then there is a guarantee that someone will be saved. That makes for evangalistic zeal. Why pray? Why preach? because God has ordained the means that his elect will be brought in. All through the bible you will read that God made a selection as Jacob have i loved but Esau have i hated. God chose the nation of Israel and destroyed a lot of the other nations. This is just the way it is, No one has the right to question God about the reason he does things. God does all things for his own glory, God will magnify his justice on a wicked world as well as his grace for the salvation of sinners.
I'm not questioning God.
Yes, God will magnify his justice on a wicked world. But to me, sinners saved by grace BEFORE they were saved were part of that wicked world.
There is no difference between a hell-bound person who will never be saved and a hell-bound person who will be saved in terms of their "hell-boundness".
I believe that God's gift of grace through Jesus Christ is a gift offered to all. Most will reject or disdain or mock the gift. That's why God's judgment will destroy them. And the bible says, more than once, that He takes no delight in that. If God created the overwhelmingly majority of human beings merely to wander this earth aimlessly and without purpose except to exercise evil all day long and then burn for eternity and that was His purpose in creating them - just for evil to temporarily flourish and them to burn forever, then He WOULD take delight in their being hell-bound for eternity.
The Bible says it is God's will that none should perish. He told Cain that if Cain would do right that he would be accepted. Jesus told the rich young ruler how to have eternal life. They both rejected the teachings and as far as we know will suffer in hell for it. Were God and Jesus just toying with Cain and the rich young ruler? I don't think so. I think God and Jesus meant what they said.
God's purpose in creating mankind was for mankind to bring Him glory and to be an image of Him. It pleased Him to do it that way. It doesn't please God at all to see His creation live for evil and go to hell.
But a Holy, Just, and Perfect God can only do that very thing - destroy wickedness and save those who submit to His gift of grace.
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salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
You said, Gods gift of grace through Jesus Christ is a gift offered to all. Has Christ really been offered to all ? Before the American Indians came in contact with the outside world, were they offered the gift ? Before the unheard of native tribes of Africa came in contact with the outside world, were they offered the gospel ? How many generations of these people lived and died without the gospel. You said most will reject it, i say all will reject it, because light has come into the world and men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved, St. John 3:19-20. A regeneration work has to be wrought in man by the Holy Spirit before he will ever make a move toward God. God has offered the general call to all men in our generation by preaching but man will only come when the effectual call is made by the Holy Spirit.
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Alive in Christ
New Member
Salzer mtn...
You posted....
From the scriptures, gosple of John, 1-10
There is no one who is without saving revelation, to be recieved or rejected.
ALL have oportunity
Praise God.
You posted....
From the scriptures, gosple of John, 1-10
There is no one who is without saving revelation, to be recieved or rejected.
ALL have oportunity
Praise God.
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You appear to have much to learn...I know how much you will balk at hearing this...but YES..we ABSOLUTELY have the right to "question"...and that is pure Scripture. Look again.
No...that is non sequitor.
You are abusing II Thess. 3:2:
It does NOT say what you think it says:
Here are other translations to clarify what the KJV says (no this doesn't mean the KJV is wrong...it's right...you just aren't reading it correctly. Re-read your KJV in light of this)
ESV - 2Th 3:2 - and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith.
NKJV - 2Th 3:2 - and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith.
NIV - 2Th 3:2 - And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.
NASB - 2Th 3:2 - and that we will be rescued from *perverse and evil men; for not all have *faith.
RSV - 2Th 3:2 - and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men; for not all have faith.
Now...Here's your (correct) KJV again which you misunderstood:
KJV - 2Th 3:2 - And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith.
"All men have not..." doesn't mean "no one has" the emphasis is on the word "ALL" not the word "Not"... you misread.
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
In the biginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. In Christ is life, that is the only place you will find life. In mankind is death. This life that is in Christ is the light of every man that recieves life in Christ. And the light shineth in darkness, the light shines for all to see but unfortantly the darkeness of man's hearts comprehendeth it not, unless, Christ the true light openes the heart of darkeness and gives light.
True...so what?
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
You are twisting what i said. I did not say we don't have the right to question or ask questions but we do not have the right to question God when we read a scripture that he has chosen some and passed by others. Rom 9:18-20, Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he find fault? For who hath resisted his will ? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God ? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus ?
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
I agree, the emphasis is not on the word not, so why put up all those different versions of the bible using the word not ? I agree, the emphasis is on the word all, so who is the all ? it is the wicked men in the same verse.
It would appear that once again the non Cals here seem to be revealing that they are not really sure what calvinists teach/believe!
Still get that feeling that some of our bethren here think that we get glee over god roasting alive sinners in hell, or that we hold God to be our Puppet master!
And that its not "fair" for Him to just chosr to save whom he wills, as if we can dictate to our Creator how things ought to be done!
the Light came to the world, but those whom were NOT to get saved by Him were staying in darkness, as that disclosed their true bent!
the Gospel is heard and received with joy to them whom Christ died on behalf of to purchase back to the father, but to rest, it brings more hardening/comdemnation!
ONLY the Lord knows who is in which camp, so pray and teach to all, in order that god can save some!