is it Heresy to deny doctrine of original/Imputed Sin?

[Winman]

Willis (convicted1) was not talking about communion when he said we must eat of Jesus's flesh and drink his blood, he is quoting John 6:53 where Jesus used these terms referring to believing.

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Jesus used many terms to describe believing, here he used the terms to eat and drink. This is what Willis was quoting.

Reformed/Calvinists insist a man must be made alive before he has the ability to believe, but scripture shows the exact opposite. Jesus said you must first believe (eat, drink) or you have no life in you.

The scriptures are clear that faith precedes regeneration.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

You don't have life that you might believe, you believe that you might have life.

 

[convicted1]

Willis (convicted1) was not talking about communion when he said we must eat of Jesus's flesh and drink his blood, he is quoting John 6:53 where Jesus used these terms referring to believing.

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Jesus used many terms to describe believing, here he used the terms to eat and drink. This is what Willis was quoting.

Reformed/Calvinists insist a man must be made alive before he has the ability to believe, but scripture shows the exact opposite. Jesus said you must first believe (eat, drink) or you have no life in you.

The scriptures are clear that faith precedes regeneration.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

You don't have life that you might believe, you believe that you might have life.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

So you are saying that until we take the Lord's supper, we aren't saved? That's a new Baptist doctrine on me, if I am understanding you right.

Paul tells us specifically that we receive the Spirit when we believe:
Galatians 3:1-3 (KJV)
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
And again in Ephesians; Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 2:4-5 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

1 Corinthians 12:13-14 (KJV)
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

When we have saving faith, we are immediately quickened, or made alive, and indwelt by the Holy Spirt, who seals us. We are also baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. Communion is an ordinance, just like water baptism, and has nothing to do with our salvation, but it was instituted by Christ that we may remember what He did for us till He comes again.

Please read what Brother Winman said. He knew what I was conveying.

 

[drfuss]

in conte/t 'His people' in that verse is referring to Israel.

Matt. 1:21 "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save the people of Israel from their sins"


His people? Israel? Us?
I don't see any difference in the context of saving from their sins vs. saving from their sinful condition. The issue here is from their sinful condition (Adam's sin) vs. from their own sins.

In this context, if it applied to Israel, it will also apply to us.

 

[Herald]

Again Brother Herald, corpse is a poor example of someone spiritually dead.

But that is word Paul used and it's meaning "is what it is."

 

[DHK]

But that is word Paul used and it's meaning "is what it is."

NO, "it is not what it is." You fail miserably in this area.
It is what the context says it is.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,
When the spirit is separated from the body it is dead.
That is the Biblical definition, not mine. One word/one meaning definitions don't work.

Let's look at your example more closely, but using a different word.

"Sunday" Sun + Day = "day to worship the Sun."
It is what it is. That is the denotative meaning, the direct translation of the word. Thus you must this day go and worship the Sun. Correct?
Etymologies don't define words, which you are doing with the word "nekros". It gives the origin and helps in a definition. But it doesn't define it. The context defines it.

To you "Sunday" may mean a day of worship.
To another it may mean the last day of a week-end.
To yet another it means the first day of the week.
To another it is the last day of the week, because their week (work week) starts on Monday.

Context. What context is it being used in? That is how the word is defined. Etymologically it means the day one goes to worship the sun.
Etymologically "death" or nekros may mean corpse or lifelessness, but that is not how it is used in the Bible.

 

[Herald]

NO, "it is not what it is." You fail miserably in this area.
It is what the context says it is.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,
When the spirit is separated from the body it is dead.
That is the Biblical definition, not mine. One word/one meaning definitions don't work.

Let's look at your example more closely, but using a different word.

"Sunday" Sun + Day = "day to worship the Sun."
It is what it is. That is the denotative meaning, the direct translation of the word. Thus you must this day go and worship the Sun. Correct?
Etymologies don't define words, which you are doing with the word "nekros". It gives the origin and helps in a definition. But it doesn't define it. The context defines it.

To you "Sunday" may mean a day of worship.
To another it may mean the last day of a week-end.
To yet another it means the first day of the week.
To another it is the last day of the week, because their week (work week) starts on Monday.

Context. What context is it being used in? That is how the word is defined. Etymologically it means the day one goes to worship the sun.
Etymologically "death" or nekros may mean corpse or lifelessness, but that is not how it is used in the Bible.

I cannot even interact with you on this topic because we are both employing a different hermeneutic. Even James 2:26 means a dead body! Your hermeneutic forces you to claim it is not. I understand that word(s) need to be taken in context. You think you have a "gotcha" in citing James 2, but...how did you say it?...oh; you fail miserably. James is making the point that a body without the spirit is dead, just as faith without works is dead. The body without the life-giving spirit of God is dead. This life-giving spirit is not to be confused with the salvific work of the Holy Spirit. It is the same life-giving spirit we see in Genesis:

[7]*then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
(Genesis 2:7 ESV)

The life giving spirit of man is the life giving breath of God. But just as the body cannot exist without the life giving spirit of God, faith without works is dead. This is called a parallelism. The word for dead here - our old friend "nekros" - means a dead body! James used it for effect. He used as a form of narrative exclamation point. Faith without works is just like a dead body. It is powerless. It can do nothing. The kind of faith is a faux-faith. That is James' point, just as it was Paul's point that the spiritual nature of the sinner is considered dead to righteousness.

I was going to ask, "How is this not making sense to you?", but I already know the answer to that. We see Scripture differently. We see it so differently that we agree on very few things. I think that is why we interact directly so infrequently.

 

[DHK]

I was going to ask, "How is this not making sense to you?", but I already know the answer to that. We see Scripture differently. We see it so differently that we agree on very few things. I think that is why we interact directly so infrequently.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Previously I gave you a list of five types of death mentioned in the Bible, and explained how each one means separation. You handily dismissed each one. You can't dismiss Scripture after Scripture. Start at the beginning then.

God gives Adam a command. The punishment he says: "In the day you eat thereof you shall surely die."

Adam ate of that fruit, and he died on that very day.

What happened? How did Adam die on the day that he ate of the fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He lived for 930 years, so he didn't die physically, at least not then. How did he die then?

Now we have this dead man, Adam, carrying on an audible conversation with God. The dead man, Adam answers God, when God calls him: "Adam where art thou?" , I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

"Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"
The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

God and the dead man, Adam, carry on this conversation. How does this corpse, this lifeless nekros carry on a carry on a conversation with God.

In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Please explain.

 

[Herald]

Previously I gave you a list of five types of death mentioned in the Bible, and explained how each one means separation. You handily dismissed each one. You can't dismiss Scripture after Scripture. Start at the beginning then.

I am not going to play games with you. You are famous for this tactic of misdirection. It may work on some, but it certainly is not going to work on me. I stand by my exegesis of Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 in regard to being dead in sin. It was those two passages I was concentrating on because they were germane to the conversation.

 

[DHK]

I am not going to play games with you. You are famous for this tactic of misdirection. It may work on some, but it certainly is not going to work on me. I stand by my exegesis of Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 in regard to being dead in sin. It was those two passages I was concentrating on because they were germane to the conversation.

In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Please explain.

You can't explain the Genesis passage because Adam was dead (separated from God), and 930 years later he would die a physical death when his spirit would be separated from his body.

You mentioned Eph.2:1. Do you think you have adequately explained that?
What were the Ephesians before they were "made alive in Christ"?
They were "dead," right? Were they lying around Ephesus as dead corpses, (nekros), lifeless? Is that which you envision? How were they dead? How these Ephesians (dead corpses), in your opinion "dead"?

They were dead because they were separated from God. They were made alive when they were reconciled to God by the work of the Holy Spirit.

Now I have explained and used Scripture for you. This is the nature of debate. Are you able to carry on? Can you explain how Adam was dead and yet could communicate with God?
How the Ephesians were dead and yet not corpses?

 

[percho]

In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Please explain.

You can't explain the Genesis passage because Adam was dead (separated from God), and 930 years later he would die a physical death when his spirit would be separated from his body.

You mentioned Eph.2:1. Do you think you have adequately explained that?
What were the Ephesians before they were "made alive in Christ"?
They were "dead," right? Were they lying around Ephesus as dead corpses, (nekros), lifeless? Is that which you envision? How were they dead? How these Ephesians (dead corpses), in your opinion "dead"?

They were dead because they were separated from God. They were made alive when they were reconciled to God by the work of the Holy Spirit.

Now I have explained and used Scripture for you. This is the nature of debate. Are you able to carry on? Can you explain how Adam was dead and yet could communicate with God?
How the Ephesians were dead and yet not corpses?

Explanation!

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' YLT

Scripture4all.org ----- muth to-die thmuth you-shall-die

That day he ate he signed his death warrant.

James 1:15 afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death. YLT

The day he died he was as dead as dirt.

The day he ate he was dead in, trespasses and sins.

 

[DHK]

Explanation!


The day he ate he was dead in, trespasses and sins.

You fail to explain how "this dead as dirt" man called Adam, is able to carry on an audible conversation with an Almighty holy, untouchable, undefiled, pure, and sinless Creator. But this "dead as dirt" Adam continued to speak to his Creator. Dead men do talk don't they?

 

[percho]

You fail to explain how "this dead as dirt" man called Adam, is able to carry on an audible conversation with an Almighty holy, untouchable, undefiled, pure, and sinless Creator. But this "dead as dirt" Adam continued to speak to his Creator. Dead men do talk don't they?

You are a Christian, you can still talk, yet you are dead and even being dead you still have a another death in front of you in all probability.

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Col 3:3
Also in all probability you will be one of the, dead in Christ, those who no longer can talk. However being a Christian,that is in the body of Christ, that death which will overcome you by which you cannot talk, the gates by which you enter Hades, shall not prevail against you, being in the church. Because; When Christ, our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Col 3:4

When? When he shall appear. Then. Then what?

Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, (the gates to Hades) where thy sting? O grave, (Greek, Hades) where thy victory? Death shall not prevail over the church of Jesus the Christ the Son of God.

You will then be able to open your eyes, and speak, passing from death unto the glory of life again. In your case being a Christian, eternal life. See Luke 16:23

Who knows Jesus may send you to one of these in bold for you will be one of those underlined. Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called.

 

[DHK]

You are a Christian, you can still talk, yet you are dead and even being dead you still have a another death in front of you in all probability.

The Christian that is dead is dead to sin; dead to the world; crucified with Christ; puts himself to death every day.
The meaning is separation. The Christian is to separate himself from sin, the world, every day. Paul said: "I die daily."

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Col 3:3

Dead to sin. Separated from sin; separated unto Christ. Death is separation.

Also in all probability you will be one of the, dead in Christ, those who no longer can talk.

Only because the spirit has been separated from the body, and the body is now rotting in the grave. When the resurrection takes place:

Ezekiel 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

However being a Christian,that is in the body of Christ, that death which will overcome you by which you cannot talk, the gates by which you enter Hades, shall not prevail against you, being in the church. Because; When Christ, our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Col 3:4

Therefore, what shall we do? Read verse five:
Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

In the WEB
Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: sexual immorality, uncleanness, depraved passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry;
--Put to death your members, the members of your body which naturally do evil.
Death is separation. Separate yourselves from sin. Don't allow the very members of your sin to be partakers of sin. Separate yourself.

When

? When he shall appear. Then. Then what?

Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, (the gates to Hades) where thy sting? O grave, (Greek, Hades) where thy victory? Death shall not prevail over the church of Jesus the Christ the Son of God.

You will then be able to open your eyes, and speak, passing from death unto the glory of life again.

When the resurrection occurs I will receive a new and glorified body. For the believer that is not death at all. It is life. Paul calls it the redemption of our bodies.

 

[convicted1]

You fail to explain how "this dead as dirt" man called Adam, is able to carry on an audible conversation with an Almighty holy, untouchable, undefiled, pure, and sinless Creator. But this "dead as dirt" Adam continued to speak to his Creator. Dead men do talk don't they?

Oooooooh......ooooooooooh............ooooooooh, I know......bananas?


Now in all seriousness, Brother DHK has explained himself quite well, and with scripture to back his claim up.


Now to answer the question you posed to Brother Percho......I guess God quickened Adam to converse with Him, and when he wasn't reconciled back to God, he died again, and he and Eve were cast out of the Garden. Of course, this didn't happen, but me being a little persnickety.

 

[Herald]

..........

 

[psalms109:31]

Romans 6

New International Version (NIV)
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[Or be rendered powerless] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.


To die is to separate our self from oneself to be born again in Christ.

Death is separation period and we can separate our self from one self to be born a new in Christ.

To be tormented, to suffer, is Separation not death as we see it, but as we don't see it.

We are not to believe what we see, but what we don't see is eternal.

 

[Herald]

In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Please explain.

DHK, I will address Genesis when you adequately respond to the the discussion on Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2. You have this penchant for getting on rabbit trails. I am going to bring you back on topic.

You mentioned Eph.2:1.

I did more than just mention Ephesians 2:1; I provide exegesis of the passage.

Do you think you have adequately explained that?

Yes.

What were the Ephesians before they were "made alive in Christ"?
They were "dead," right? Were they lying around Ephesus as dead corpses, (nekros), lifeless? Is that which you envision? How were they dead? How these Ephesians (dead corpses), in your opinion "dead"?

Look at my opinion on being spiritually dead HERE , HERE, and HERE.

Now I have explained and used Scripture for you.

Yes. You have. You also have not performed even a scintilla of exegesis.

This is the nature of debate. Are you able to carry on?

I suggest you go look in the mirror.

 

[convicted1]

..........

I liked this quote better, Brother Herald. But I would have said "ooooooooo", it's more to the point than your "........."


:love2: :wavey: :flower:

J/K with you, Brother Herald.....no offense intended.....trying to lighten the tone of this thread with a little levity.....that's all.....no maliciouness intended.

 

[webdog]

Matt. 1:21 "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save the people of Israel from their sins"


His people? Israel? Us?
I don't see any difference in the context of saving from their sins vs. saving from their sinful condition. The issue here is from their sinful condition (Adam's sin) vs. from their own sins.

In this context, if it applied to Israel, it will also apply to us.

That verse is often misquoted to imply limited atonement. I was just clarifying the context was in regards to Jews, all Jews. Of course it equally applies to us as Christ took on the sin and curse of the entire universe.