Do you hold that it is actual acts of sins, or that I am a sinner by birth, tht condemns us before God?
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Is It Homophobia, or Knowing His Truth?
- Thread starter righteousdude2
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Do you hold that it is actual acts of sins, or that I am a sinner by birth, tht condemns us before God?
freeatlast
New Member
We are all part of a fallen race because of the act of one man, Adam. We become practicing sinners at our first sin at some point in our life.
Homosexuality isn't a sin, not anywhere in the Bible. I know the verses, you better read them SLOWLY before you try to redress me. HOMOSEXUAL SEX is the sin.
A person is homosexual if they are virginal or celibate. Were you heterosexual before you had sex? While there are some Straight and Homosexual people that are sexual addicts and do just about anything, sexually, they aren't just homosexuals, they are both. If you call someone a pervert, well there you have them.
Homosexuality, is what gender you are attracted to. Not which gender you do the vertical dance with.
If you do not have the sex, you do not commit a biblical sin.
SURE someone could lust, but just as not every heterosexual is a lusting sinner, neither is every homosexual one. They would ride about equal percentages.
This is a topic, like RCC, and ABORTION, that is merely relevant because so many people like the feeling of BETTER THAN and choose something to argue.
Paul said not to judge those outside the Church. If this isnt a person in your church peer group, you have no biblical right to question and harrass them.
I'm sure I'm making no friends here. Just as I'm sure I'll be attacked and the arguments ignored. That's what I've learned to expect in my short time here.
Homosexuality is due to persons having sin natures! ALLof us have one, its just that their sin area comes out in those sexual acts, while ours might be lieing, lust, pride, greed etc!
Think BIG problem though is that this is the ONE sin that tmany in the church are trying best to refedine as not sin, but "different, but equal before God!"
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Dead on. Nowhere does God's word call an orientation a sin. the sin is the fornication just as it is in heterosexuals.:thumbsup:
I think Jesus would have something to say about this.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
Sin is not always determined by the committing of an overt act.
Not Much Disagreement From Me...
...you put your argument in a way that is simple to understand, thus I will not be one of those attacking you [I know all too well what it feels like to be attacked on the BBF].
However, the folks I am calling attention to are the ones going to church, and believing they are not only saved, but given approval by God [through the churches they attend] to do the vertical dance with one another, which is a sin, according to Romans 1:26-27 - That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
And in the Book of Genesis in the story of Sodom and Lot.
If the above is you view and opinion, who am I to try and pursuade you to change that view. However, I'd like to add that to say any person who has not yet had sex is "homosexual" does not line up with the DSMII, Websters Dictionary, and main-stream Thesauruses, etc. And while you can hold to this view if it makes you feel better, the truth is waht we are looking for regarding this sexual sin.
I have to admit; you do have a good argument when you say, "If you do not have the sex, you do not commit a biblical sin." That would-be something to consider, as a believer, so I'll let you have that one. I would assume that if a person who actually believes they were born homosexual, and are somehow able to refrain from having sex throughout his or her lifetime with a member of their own sex, or a member from the opposite sex [which would amount to fornication/adultery], than your view could hold true. Something like an alcoholic who never drinks again until the day he dies.
However, you may be in error with this statement, "Homosexuality, is what gender you are attracted to. Not which gender you do the vertical dance with." I say you may be in error because there are many intellectual writings that would be in direct conflict with your definition and the customary and acceptable intellectual definitions of homosexuality.
Your loosely held ideas as to what is and what isn't homosexual is just that: "Loose [unattached from the Biblical description and scholarly definitions]!"
However, if this is how you choose to view and believe, so be it, you [and I] will be enlightened once we get to our final stopping place.
In closing, just to let you know...I am not judging those outside the church. However, I do not see how someone can be a homosexual being and claim to be born-again, when their darkness is help up to the light of the Word itself???
BTW - I checked several Gay Church sites on-line and found their arguments to be eerily similar to yours. Not judging,....jus' sayin'! :type:
...you put your argument in a way that is simple to understand, thus I will not be one of those attacking you [I know all too well what it feels like to be attacked on the BBF].
However, the folks I am calling attention to are the ones going to church, and believing they are not only saved, but given approval by God [through the churches they attend] to do the vertical dance with one another, which is a sin, according to Romans 1:26-27 - That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
And in the Book of Genesis in the story of Sodom and Lot.
If the above is you view and opinion, who am I to try and pursuade you to change that view. However, I'd like to add that to say any person who has not yet had sex is "homosexual" does not line up with the DSMII, Websters Dictionary, and main-stream Thesauruses, etc. And while you can hold to this view if it makes you feel better, the truth is waht we are looking for regarding this sexual sin.
I have to admit; you do have a good argument when you say, "If you do not have the sex, you do not commit a biblical sin." That would-be something to consider, as a believer, so I'll let you have that one. I would assume that if a person who actually believes they were born homosexual, and are somehow able to refrain from having sex throughout his or her lifetime with a member of their own sex, or a member from the opposite sex [which would amount to fornication/adultery], than your view could hold true. Something like an alcoholic who never drinks again until the day he dies.
However, you may be in error with this statement, "Homosexuality, is what gender you are attracted to. Not which gender you do the vertical dance with." I say you may be in error because there are many intellectual writings that would be in direct conflict with your definition and the customary and acceptable intellectual definitions of homosexuality.
Your loosely held ideas as to what is and what isn't homosexual is just that: "Loose [unattached from the Biblical description and scholarly definitions]!"
However, if this is how you choose to view and believe, so be it, you [and I] will be enlightened once we get to our final stopping place.
In closing, just to let you know...I am not judging those outside the church. However, I do not see how someone can be a homosexual being and claim to be born-again, when their darkness is help up to the light of the Word itself???
BTW - I checked several Gay Church sites on-line and found their arguments to be eerily similar to yours. Not judging,....jus' sayin'! :type:
Paul clear that God views the act of Homosexuality as against the creation he ontended, and that those who advocate that lifestyle as being acceptable, equal to hetrosexuality are under condemnation!
those who desire to come out of that life style, and who seek forgiveness and and healing from the Lord and whose desire is to please God, GREAT! My problem are with those who flaut it and accept it as being valid"just the way God made us!"
And God forbid that a Church naming jesus as Lord accepts it as being from/of God!
While I like your thought and agree with the gist of it, its important to know that a mature believer has had the sinful nature removed. That's biblical. Rom 7:5, rom 8:9, col 2:11.
Apostle paul still had the Sin principle dwelling in him AFTER being saved and filled by the Spirit, and we will have our sin natures until glorified!
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Perhaps the reason people identify as being a homosexual before engaging in homosexual sex is because there are many layers to one's sexual orientation.
I do however believe that part of the reason that people start to engage in homosexual acts is because our society teaches that once you identify as something, you have to embrace it. And this leads to folks engaging in the behavior associated with homosexuality.
It's like was said, folks identify as heterosexual before they have sex the first time, so I would imagine folks can identify as homosexual before having sex the first time too.
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I agree here. There's much more to orientation than to whom one is attracted.
Does Scripture speak to the homosexuality being a sin or the acts being sin? It doesn't speak to heterosexuality being a sin either.
Can one be a liar or a thief and claim to be born again? Perhaps a better judge of who the person is would be whether or not they are willing to agree with what God says about the acts being sinful.
The one in dallas is one of the largest, I have sit with their founder to hear his thoughts,
And understand his arguments so I could answer them. Told him I might post a rebuttal to his book queeries, a play on query, or question to those like saturnneptune, he said do what I will he wouldn't participate. So I let it go. But I can't argue with some of the reason. I agree on you with the born again claim, even by your view of the meaning of the word. But, I find the biggest impediment to witnessing to them is the other "Xians" who have been there before me. So, I have to show them, telling won't work, a God of love. When all they have seen from anyone in a church is fascist oppression and dehumanization.
I won't be the one to help them in their walk with God. I may walk with them, but its up to them to move the feet and God to give them guiadance and strength.
Any biblical comment you find on homosexualism, is in regards to the physical act. And even then, there are very possible cultural arguments that would explain things differently.
I'm not claiming they are born that way in my argument. Just that they are romantically comfortable in same sex relationships. I, personally have known women and men, who as repulsed to kissing the opposite sex as I am. Its not in them. I have seen kiddos grow up, that from the time they were still in diapers their parents were in counseling to find out what was wrong and how to move forward. The child was gay characteristics, LONG BEFORE the physical mind was capable of having those thoughts.
What about transgendered children? The age a person starts contemplatin sexual things is around 12, but kids as young as five have screamed fits that they were the other gender. We aren't talking petulant bratty want their way temper-tantrumish fits, we are talking confusion and fear that they weren't being recognized as what they saw themselves as.
Physiologically they are incapable of pervision yet. Yet when they grow up, they will be bullied by bigots, called pedophile, zoophile, pervert, fag, queer, or even gay, but in such a way it might as well have been any of the other. And you wonder why they are not willing to listen to someone associated with that culture?
As far as the latest dsm, I haven't read it. The last one, a coupla years ago now, wouldn't have been in conflict with anything I have said. Its not a matter of gay gene, although it could be a genetic disposition, we don't know either way for sure. The extremes on both sides scream so loud and emotionally its not worth reasoning with either. It could be how they naturally react to cultural events, it could be some sexual trauma, whatever. It doesn't matter, the brain doesn't have sexual thoughts that young, not of this magnitude. And its not fully developed to handle complex intimat relationships until its mid 20s. They go through that period and come out of it.....gay. it really doesn't matter how they got there, they are there,
If all you can do is dehumanize them and threaten them to conformity with the eternal torment of a fascist God, you are the problem, not the solution. (I'm sure that you aren't that, I use the pronoun in a generic sense).
Scripture is clear its the sexual acts, it doesn't address their inclinations.
Do you remember the age you examined your options and chose to be heterosexual? I don't eitherl. I was finding girls pretty at a young age, before 2nd grade. That didn't have any sexual thoughts to it, but they were the ones I was definitely attracted to. Do you propose, you could have gone either way and chose to be hetero?
There you have it. The church needs to determine if they serve a god known as love, or if they are going to use him as a terrorist threat to scare people into conforming. They can't sell a loving God with the behavior they put out now. If I were gay or roman catholic I would have already gone off on the bigotry displayed here, and nearly any other Xian board I have frequented. Read a book by the barna group called unChristian and see the fruits of this behavior. Then let the fruits determine if that is the right path. This was a lot of thumbing on the phone. Ty for your thoughtful, non kneejerking thought.
Whatever, he said that comment to a heterosexual group. However you wish to pervert Jesus is your business you will have to answer for it, not me. Heterosexuals lust but not every homosexual lusts. Does every heterosexual lust? Why would you say every homosexual does. That's not a fair statement.
What jesus did say was god loves and provides even for his enemies, or those against Him. Jesus commanded us to love like God does. Not less, but to be as complete in our love, even for His enemies as He is.
Your comment tells me you look at homosexuals as a sexual perversion only, not as a a person. That says worse about you than it does about them.
You can decide, wanna play god and judge them, or learn to love and provide as Jesus commanded and let Him change you both.
Most pedophiles are heterosexual. Would it be fair for me to call you a pedophile because you are hoterosexual? That's an exact equivalent to what you just did. How Godly. :I
John wrote if you mess up the love, god who IS love isn't in you and you aren't in Him. I don't thinl that person has much claim to any grace.
I think Jesus would have something to say about this.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
Sin is not always determined by the committing of an overt act.
Your attempt to avoid what Jesus said is not an excuse.
It is merely avoidance.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Lusting, like fornication, is STILL an act.
One Thought to Ponder....
....we know that Satan is a cunning liar, and that he will do and say just about anything to gain the interest of the sinner [and believers]. Look at Eve and Adam! Satan was convincing when he did his theological spin of the meaning and purpose of the Tree of Life. He was so convincing that both Adam and Eve fell for it hook-line-and-sinker! Thus, we are where we are today.
Tjhe philosphical arguments of the worldly wise, even to believers, which is what Paul discusses in Romans, Chapter One. In fact, it was man's ability to convince THEMSELVES that they knew more than God and that they were more right then God, that left them to be turned over to their own foolishness.
Homosexuals, like hedonists, are deluded by their sin and the sin of the world. They want so badly to be able to live the life they live without condemnation, or changing [in accordance with the word of God] making them natural prey to Satan (I Peter 5:8-9) who roams about looking for someone to devour.
....we know that Satan is a cunning liar, and that he will do and say just about anything to gain the interest of the sinner [and believers]. Look at Eve and Adam! Satan was convincing when he did his theological spin of the meaning and purpose of the Tree of Life. He was so convincing that both Adam and Eve fell for it hook-line-and-sinker! Thus, we are where we are today.
Tjhe philosphical arguments of the worldly wise, even to believers, which is what Paul discusses in Romans, Chapter One. In fact, it was man's ability to convince THEMSELVES that they knew more than God and that they were more right then God, that left them to be turned over to their own foolishness.
Homosexuals, like hedonists, are deluded by their sin and the sin of the world. They want so badly to be able to live the life they live without condemnation, or changing [in accordance with the word of God] making them natural prey to Satan (I Peter 5:8-9) who roams about looking for someone to devour.
You're Right...
Again....this is left to demonic spin. Hetrosexuality is not a sin in itself, because it was ordained of God that one man, one woman MARRY and multiply.
Now, if you go to David and Bathesheba, we see an early form of adultery taking place. Also there is fonrication mentioned [sex before marriage].
Like the argument about the Tree of Life -
Genesis 3 - New Living Translation (NLT)
The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”
“Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”
“You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”
The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too.
It only takes a convincing argument/presentation about how a certain thing is not really sin to get mankind to "bite!" And Satan is a master liar and orator....
Again, while I respect your opinions and views, IMHO, you are walking a fine line, a walk that includes mental and spiritual gymnastics to support and validate. Be careful, your witness and the lives of others are hanging on a thread when it comes to public opinion, tolerance, political correctness, and taking a stand.
Again, I was only addressing those homosexuals within the church who think they can live this way and not have to answer to God for their sin.
One such person is my daughter and numerous family members, who see nothing wrong with her choice of lifestyle. She says God made her this way....I say: God don''t make junk! She says she's born-again and sleeps with her partner....I say it is sin, if it's being done under the roof of the church.
Again....this is left to demonic spin. Hetrosexuality is not a sin in itself, because it was ordained of God that one man, one woman MARRY and multiply.
Now, if you go to David and Bathesheba, we see an early form of adultery taking place. Also there is fonrication mentioned [sex before marriage].
Like the argument about the Tree of Life -
Genesis 3 - New Living Translation (NLT)
The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”
“Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”
“You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”
The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too.
It only takes a convincing argument/presentation about how a certain thing is not really sin to get mankind to "bite!" And Satan is a master liar and orator....
Again, while I respect your opinions and views, IMHO, you are walking a fine line, a walk that includes mental and spiritual gymnastics to support and validate. Be careful, your witness and the lives of others are hanging on a thread when it comes to public opinion, tolerance, political correctness, and taking a stand.
Again, I was only addressing those homosexuals within the church who think they can live this way and not have to answer to God for their sin.
One such person is my daughter and numerous family members, who see nothing wrong with her choice of lifestyle. She says God made her this way....I say: God don''t make junk! She says she's born-again and sleeps with her partner....I say it is sin, if it's being done under the roof of the church.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
There's nothing demonic about it. Heterosexuality is an orientation. PEOPLE commit sins. Orientations do not. :laugh:
IANMO(IAMNTMYOWN)
New Member
Heb. 10:24
James 1:14-15 "But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished bringeth forth death."
Looking over the arguments defending different aspects of this issue, I was surprised to see that this verse was never referenced. It is interesting to note that the act of temptation is not a sin. Jesus Christ was tempted in the wilderness, and we are all aware that He could not sin.
It is when we entertain the thought, and allow ourselves to submit to that thought and desire it so much that it we must have it, and we cannot resist it on our own an longer.
As was mentioned, homosexuality is no worse a sin than murder, lying, rape, or gossip. It is all sin and all black in God's eyes. Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed for their promiscuity, but Achan and his family were destroyed for his lie. God hates all sin. Period. We as Christians should also.
Our approach is very important. Heb. 10:24 states very well what are perspective should be in addressing issues as Christians. "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works." Very often rebuking someone for their faults is a "spiritual" way of glorifying ourselves. The goal should be to address and to challenge someone to "good works". Who cares how good we are. Will this person have a better perspective of my God when I'm done talking with them? Above all, God is to be glorified.
James 1:14-15 "But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished bringeth forth death."
Looking over the arguments defending different aspects of this issue, I was surprised to see that this verse was never referenced. It is interesting to note that the act of temptation is not a sin. Jesus Christ was tempted in the wilderness, and we are all aware that He could not sin.
It is when we entertain the thought, and allow ourselves to submit to that thought and desire it so much that it we must have it, and we cannot resist it on our own an longer.
As was mentioned, homosexuality is no worse a sin than murder, lying, rape, or gossip. It is all sin and all black in God's eyes. Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed for their promiscuity, but Achan and his family were destroyed for his lie. God hates all sin. Period. We as Christians should also.
Our approach is very important. Heb. 10:24 states very well what are perspective should be in addressing issues as Christians. "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works." Very often rebuking someone for their faults is a "spiritual" way of glorifying ourselves. The goal should be to address and to challenge someone to "good works". Who cares how good we are. Will this person have a better perspective of my God when I'm done talking with them? Above all, God is to be glorified.
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