God in His coomandment said NOT tomurder,did NOT say never was to kill, as there are some that would be "justified!"
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Is it moral to Kill in self-defense?
- Thread starter robertguwapito
- Start date
God in His coomandment said NOT tomurder,did NOT say never was to kill, as there are some that would be "justified!"
I believe we are exspected to lay down our lives for our loved ones. There are many options to murder. Giving our wifes a chance to escape is just one such option. I would do all I could to keep from killing another human being, no matter the circumstances. Once you take a persons life you have taken away all chance of redemption. It's hard for me to think of a situtation where I would have no other choice. I would be likely to wound or incapacitate a threat rather than murder them. Murder and defensively killing someone are two very different things and both have the potentual to get you killed your self. If you killed someone to protect your loved ones you had better hope you can prove it. Your loved ones testimony is biased.
Taking someone's life is a very serious matter. We can all take classes to teach us how to disable threats with out killing them. Personally I think it's reasonable to know how to defend your self. However turning the other cheek is God's will.
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
I admit this would be hard for me not to resist. Especially if the threat involved were a loved one.
MB
We're on the road in Walsh, Colorado, way out in the sticks with poor internet access, so I don't know if my answer will get through. But I'll try.
This verse is often wrongly used to comdemn self defense, but it is not referring to self defense at all. Striking someone on the cheek is not a dangerous physical attack, but in any culture it is an insult. You can't injure someone by simply slapping them. (I'm a 6th degree black belt, so I am well versed in how to injure.) So this passage is teaching response to an insult, not a dangerous attack.
I've read the whole thread. We've had trouble getting internet service where we are (in the sticks of CO), so I couldn't answer before. Some good answers, some Bible, some Pentecostal silliness. As the author of a pamphlet on self defense I think I can contribute. (Christian Philosophy of Self Defense, publ. by the Gospel Martial Arts Union.) Maybe next week in Missouri I can start a thread sharing that complete philosophy.
In the mean time, just a few (of many) scriptures that teach, contrary to our Wigglesmith lover, that self defense is not only right but righteous.
Even before the law, righteous Abraham rescued his nephew with "trained servants," martial artists: Gen. 14:14--"And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan."
We have a moral duty to defend the helpless: Prov. 24:11-12--"If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?"
According to the righteous warrior-king David, fighting skills are God-given: Ps. 144:1--"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight."
Christ recognized the right of self defense: John 18:36--"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
Christ used violence to cast evil men out of His "Father's house": Matt. 21:12--"And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves."
In the mean time, just a few (of many) scriptures that teach, contrary to our Wigglesmith lover, that self defense is not only right but righteous.
Even before the law, righteous Abraham rescued his nephew with "trained servants," martial artists: Gen. 14:14--"And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan."
We have a moral duty to defend the helpless: Prov. 24:11-12--"If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?"
According to the righteous warrior-king David, fighting skills are God-given: Ps. 144:1--"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight."
Christ recognized the right of self defense: John 18:36--"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
Christ used violence to cast evil men out of His "Father's house": Matt. 21:12--"And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves."
plain_n_simple
Active Member
JohnofJapan:"This verse is often wrongly used to comdemn self defense, but it is not referring to self defense at all."
Is self defense resisting evil?
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
2 Cor:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Romans 12: 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Is self defense resisting evil?
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
2 Cor:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Romans 12: 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her [Revelation 18:4-6].
plain_n_simple
Active Member
It is a common mistake to use Old Testament verses that line up with our own thinking, if we cannot accept what Jesus says about a subject. The problem is the OT was written for those under the curse. We are under Grace. Trying to combine the two can sometimes create confusion, and God is not the author of confusion. God tells us what OT scriptures to pay attention to:
Matthew 11:13
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he (Jesus) expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.
Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Acts 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Hebrews 1:1-2
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
"You say, but I say"
God never changes, but the way He deals with men did change.
From men under the Curse to believers under Grace.
From the Old Covenant to the New Covenant
Jesus made it clear we are to listen to Him, in opposition to the Pharasees who quoted OT script.
Matthew 5
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: (Old Covenant)
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.(New Covenant)
A believer in the New Covenant cannot live by the Old Covenant and remain.
"A text taken out of context is a pretext." And you have definitely taken this out of context. Note v. 38, which makes this a legal matter. (The quote is from OT law.) The first word of v. 39 is "but", meaning that v. 39 continues the thought of v. 38. Then in 39 we have the word "evil" in the English, but in the Greek there is a definite article before "evil" (tw ponerw, "the evil"), meaning that a specific evil is meant, not evil in general. That evil is the legal matter meant in v. 38. Therefore, you have badly misinterpreted this passage.
This is not physical flesh, but refers to the sin nature. Come on, this is basic theology which evidently Wigglesworth (and you) are not familiar with.
This is spiritual warfare, not physical. Come on, this is basic. You are not demonstrating the ability to do simple exegesis.
Self defense is not evil. Your reasoning is circular here. The Greek word is the one for evil that is immoral, but self defense is morally right, as Jesus proved when he threw the evil men out of His Father's house.
Definitely so. This is why in my philosophy of self defense I recommend that the defender should first of all seek to first defuse the situation by a soft answer, a witness for Christ, etc. But this verse doesn't forbid violence but rather recognizes that there is a time when you cannot live at peace with all men. And that time is when you must prevent evil as we do in self defense. But you don't seem to believe in stopping the evil, but in letting it occur, then trying to deal with it.
Oh, please, self defense is not vengeance. It is the prevention of evil, not the repayment of evil. Elementary semantics!
Very clearly spiritual warfare, not physical warfare. Just look at the weapons used: truth, righteousness, the Gospel, faith, salvation, the Word of God. There is nothing here about the physical weapons used to stop evil by self defense.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Very clearly spiritual warfare, not physical warfare. Just look at the weapons used: truth, righteousness, the Gospel, faith, salvation, the Word of God. There is nothing here about the physical weapons used to stop evil by self defense.
An eye is physical, a tooth is physical, a cheek is physical, the root problem is a spiritual one. The evilheart manifests to the physical.
Matthew 5
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: (Old Covenant)
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.(New Covenant)
A believer in the New Covenant cannot live by the Old Covenant and remain.
An eye is physical, a tooth is physical, a cheek is physical, the root problem is a spiritual one. The evilheart manifests to the physical.
Matthew 5
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: (Old Covenant)
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.(New Covenant)
A believer in the New Covenant cannot live by the Old Covenant and remain.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
robertguwapito
New Member
Hi Plain n Simple! :smilewinkgrin:
John Wesley in Wesley's Notes, speaking of Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill"...
"20:13 Thou shalt not kill - Thou shalt not do any thing hurtful to the health, or life of thy own body, or any other's. This doth not forbid our own necessary defence, or the magistrates putting offenders to death; but it forbids all malice and hatred to any, for he that hateth his brother is a murderer, and all revenge arising therefrom; likewise anger and hurt said or done, or aimed to be done in a passion; of this our Saviour expounds this commandment, Mt 5:22."
John Wesley in Wesley's Notes, speaking of Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill"...
"20:13 Thou shalt not kill - Thou shalt not do any thing hurtful to the health, or life of thy own body, or any other's. This doth not forbid our own necessary defence, or the magistrates putting offenders to death; but it forbids all malice and hatred to any, for he that hateth his brother is a murderer, and all revenge arising therefrom; likewise anger and hurt said or done, or aimed to be done in a passion; of this our Saviour expounds this commandment, Mt 5:22."
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Robert, you have not addressed my previous reply, if you bothered to read it at all. I don't believe you are serious enough to study the scripture for yourself to support your own veiwpoint.
I prefer the give and take between two live people as opposed to your posting someone else's opinion, then me commenting on that opinion, it's rather worthless. Should you ever read the bible for yourself, it might be more interesting. God bless and best wishes.
I prefer the give and take between two live people as opposed to your posting someone else's opinion, then me commenting on that opinion, it's rather worthless. Should you ever read the bible for yourself, it might be more interesting. God bless and best wishes.
You do realize that the opposing viewpoint thinks the same towards you? Will it take root in you, or blow away?
plain_n_simple
Active Member
It will blow away. There is more than enough plain scripture from Jesus to support my view. Only one verse from the opposite, and it is a shaky one at best on such a serious subject as taking a life. If it were true, there would be more teaching on taking another life from Jesus' words.
Well, see, that's the thing: we could give you more than one verse about laying down our lives for others; and obeying the kings and governors placed over us, that with well-doing we may silence the foolish; and obeying the commandments for servants to obey their masters; and even the the commandment from Jesus to have swords available for protection; and the principle of the stronger brother taking care of the weaker. . . .
But you are like the stone path, and have no place for the seed to take root.
SO - you see verses that support your position, and others see verses that support the other position. No one is going to change anyone else's mind, and effectively, this conversation was over several pages ago.
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Yes but what this thread is about is it being right or wrong to kill in self defense. I realize it would be hard to determine such a thing in a life threatening sitituation. However a six degree black belt wouldn't have to kill to incapcitate.
MB
In any self defense situation there is the possibility of killing someone. I remember a Brit who was a 3rd black in karate who tried to defend a woman from a drunk down in Tokyo. He round kicked the guy in the head. The kick didn't kill him, but hitting his head on the pavement did. The Brit went to jail, and rightly so.
Very true. The higher the rank, the more control and the more knowledge of how to incapacitate. However, if the opponent came at me with a knife or gun, I would not hold back.
I already explained this passage. You simply can't divide up the words of Christ this way. It is a specific evil in question, not just any evil or evil in general. Refute my exegesis, please, or simply stop using the passage for your own purposes. And I quoted a passage from Abraham's life, before the "Old Covenant." You still must deal with that.
And please refute the other points I've made directly from the Scripture.
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