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Is it possible to be Southern Baptist and...
- Thread starter Rebel1
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Reformed Baptists did yes
My experience has bern many do not know the doctrine of eternal security well enough to defend it, but they do know the doctrine well enough to hold it.
SBC churches affirm the BF&M but normally have a "church covenant" which goes well beyond describing a common belief between participants churches.
The last eight I have attended (I moved last year and have been visiting churches) all had covenants that addressed the sinfulness you could have described approperately.
These fall into the issue of what many SBC churches call "Church Discipline".
Typically those who live sinful lifestyles are considered never to have been saved because of the testimony of their lives (the fruit they bear). There is still the possibility those living such lifestyles are saved and wrestling with God's conviction- but that is not our concern. They are treated as lost because of the sinfulness their lives exhibit.
@Iconoclast,
Maybe this will help explain what I mean.
Suppose I am serking a Reformed church. Some have women pastors, some accept non-traditional lifestyles, some are pro-choice....ect.
If I restrict my search to SBC reformed churches I know that they reject many of those things. I know they have a male pastor, oppose non-traditional livestyles, believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, ect. Being a reformed baptist church I also know what they teach soteriologically AND I know they do not restrict kingdom work to reformed theology (although they may only associate with other Reformed churches).
This is how you have SBC churches with David Plat and Paul Washer but also Jonathan Falwell.
(That is an example - I would not attend a church that divided itself from believers among Reformed lines).
Maybe this will help explain what I mean.
Suppose I am serking a Reformed church. Some have women pastors, some accept non-traditional lifestyles, some are pro-choice....ect.
If I restrict my search to SBC reformed churches I know that they reject many of those things. I know they have a male pastor, oppose non-traditional livestyles, believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, ect. Being a reformed baptist church I also know what they teach soteriologically AND I know they do not restrict kingdom work to reformed theology (although they may only associate with other Reformed churches).
This is how you have SBC churches with David Plat and Paul Washer but also Jonathan Falwell.
(That is an example - I would not attend a church that divided itself from believers among Reformed lines).
Yes, but then one would be disbelieving what the scriptures state plainly to us!
I don't know that this is fair either. Probably the best articulated defenses I have heard of the doctrine of eternal security have come from people like Paul Enns, Paul Washer, and David Platt.
When I think of my experiences, I do believe that the average member often is more concerned about learning what to believe than actually understanding fully the belief that they hold. But this has, in my experience, not been a denominational issue.
My experience has been IFB folk often cannot grasp that other people hold different interpretations. Their defense is a
regurgitation of specific passages, not truly touching the difference in interpretation. My experience with many SBC people is that they simply do not care to defend the doctrine. I find both equally troubling.
37818
Well-Known Member
Did I understand you correctly? The Baptist Faith and Message, to characterize it, is the New Testment Faith and Message. So what do you mean?
My independent influences have been college educated teachers in strong churches that know how to present and defend the Gospel.
My SBC knowledge is that they are fewer strong Christians and more weaker ones
All I know about the SBC is my Grandparents were one 60 years ago... I can't tell you what they believed because I'm Old Line Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist... Can only tell you Grandma took her Bible to church and loved to play the church piano... Brother Glen
My SBC influencers have been current and past seminary professors. My IBF knowledge is that they are fewer strong Christians and more weaker ones (which is why when I moved here I ended up taking IBF Baptists off my list in searching for a church home).
But it is wrong to categorize the whole of IBF or SBC churches on our experiences.
Yes.
Apostates aren't "true believers",
And they do not "endure to the end".
They are, by definition, those who once embraced the faith and have fallen away.
The S.B.C. decidedly wants to be O.S.A.S...
But, the language of the BFM does not exclude those who believe that one can have truly embraced the faith and subsequently fallen into disbelief...
They are so concerned with the irrelevant "sin away your salvation" argument, that their BFM doesn't really address the apostate who doesn't "LOSE" their salvation, but rather abandons it.
Theoretically, the BFM doesn't really address that issue. One could believe in the possibility of apostasy, and also affirm the BFM simultaneously...
Because the statement that "All true believers will endure to the end" is a mere tautology....of course they do...otherwise, they aren't "believers".
A true apostate however, is one who (by definition) stops believing.
Thus, they are not "true believers"...
It's a little tricky, but the BFM is insufficiently written to exclude the possibility of true apostacy.
It was written in a post Reformation context which thinks that there are two possibilities.....
1.) Non-believers (non-elect)
2.) Believers (elect)
Thus, it sees two possible categories and addresses this issue as such....
It does not acknowledge or address:
3.) The Apostate....those who fall into disbelief.....not sin....disbelief.
What the B.F.M. does not distinguish, is the person who has truly once believed and has genuinely embraced the faith and has subsequently fallen into disbelief...Since that isn't an accepted Post-Reformation Category, it has abandoned it.
This is why to David Taylor simply the statement in post 2 seemed sufficient for him he bolded:
ALL TRUE BELIEVERS ENDURE TO THE END.
For someone like him, that actually says it all....it doesn't...but he thinks it does, that is true for the BFM in general.
The B.F.M. isn't really written to address it, because it doesn't accept that as a category of person.
Christian History does, and I,M.O...the bible clearly does...but the B.F.M. isn't overly concerned with the Bible but, rather Theological Systems, as are the bulk of all Post-Reformation Theologians, and thus, it doesn't even recognize that category.
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My experience has been quite different. Most SBC people I've spoken to, which I must admit is not every Southern Baptist, can barely repeat John 3:16, much less the basis for OSAS.
Although some have a Calvinistic interpretation which you have repeated, far more have an interpretation similar to
1 Corinthians 5:1-5 NLT
I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother. [2] You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship. [3] Even though I am not with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. And as though I were there, I have already passed judgment on this man [4] in the name of the Lord Jesus. You must call a meeting of the church. I will be present with you in spirit, and so will the power of our Lord Jesus. [5] Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns.
I've seen a sort of Universalism appear and permeate the SBC communities I've visited that anyone who says "I believe in Jesus." and doesn't rock the boat is considered to be going to heaven regardless of their behavior.
Yes, it's not the OSAS that is written on the usually (in my area) photocopied covenants, but it is the OSAS practiced.
Sorry about being so negative due to my own discouragement in having to deal with a certain groups of SBC people daily.
I often get discouraged with the SBC. That is why I looked so much into the IBF churches when I moved here. I just found the SBC churches here more serious about doctrine.
At the end of the day it is the church and not their participation in the SBC that matters. Each church is different. There are healthy, sick, and dead churches among any group.
We just have to be careful not to categorize churches because they are IBF or because they contribute to the SBC.
What page is that?
I don't know what you mean by many but if there are any they are a minority so small they couldn't add up to a percentage.
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