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Is it possible?
- Thread starter Sherrie
- Start date
KenH
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, Sherrie. There is no necessity for us to divide into competing theological camps. But, alas, since many of us disagree over some of the behind-the-scenes details of how God saves people, we debate these details. We in this forum are not accusing each other of not being saved, just arguing over how we were saved.
I think it is possible to be both but not to the full... I'm Primitive Baptist and whereas we lean toward Calvinism we are not full Calvinist.
I also in my daily walk with the Lord lean toward the Arminian brethren and I am blessed by God when I do what he has commanded me by scripture to do.
The Primitive Baptist believe in two salvations... One is eternal which we have nothing to do with... it is all of God... The scriptures declare nothing less.
The other is timely which we are blessed as we follow our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in servitude. If we don't follow him we lose the blessing in this life but not in the next. Many lost the joys of their salvation in scripture and one was David but he never lost his eternal salvation.
According to the doctrines of each... You are either one or the other... God either saves you... Eternally... Or you have the given ability to save yourself... Eternally!... Those are the only two senarios and there are no others on which all the religions of the world are based... Brother Glen
&
Sister Charlotte
I also in my daily walk with the Lord lean toward the Arminian brethren and I am blessed by God when I do what he has commanded me by scripture to do.
The Primitive Baptist believe in two salvations... One is eternal which we have nothing to do with... it is all of God... The scriptures declare nothing less.
The other is timely which we are blessed as we follow our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in servitude. If we don't follow him we lose the blessing in this life but not in the next. Many lost the joys of their salvation in scripture and one was David but he never lost his eternal salvation.
According to the doctrines of each... You are either one or the other... God either saves you... Eternally... Or you have the given ability to save yourself... Eternally!... Those are the only two senarios and there are no others on which all the religions of the world are based... Brother Glen
Y
Yelsew
Guest
There is another scenario.
God made the way and offered to us the means. The work of God has already been accomplished, we then must accept his offer and thereby receive the salvation offered. We do nothing in the Salvation process except believe in Jesus and by believing receive eternal life.
There are only two means by which any are saved... God saves you or you save yourself... All the religions of the world are based upon those two means... With various interpretations... Paul on Mars Hill to the stoics and the epicurians... To the unknown God... Him I declare unto you!... Brother Glen
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Sister Charlotte
Sherrie,
YOu are either one or the other. The names are used to describe two basic views with variations in them. The two basic views refer to God's sovereignty. Either you believe in it with respect to salvation (Calvinism) or you reject it with respect to salvation (Arminianism). Certain people might parse the aspects of it differently but the main categories are these. The only other options are Pelagianism or semi pelagianism.
An arminian will claim to believe in God's sovereignty but it is clear that such a person has denied the sovereignty of God in its traditional definition and teaching. He must redefine what it has always meaned to fit his system. Sovereignty means that God is in control of all things, including the salvation of individuals. An arminian says that man is in control of his own salvation because he alone gets to make that choice. Biblical issues aside, these are the only two basic options.
YOu are either one or the other. The names are used to describe two basic views with variations in them. The two basic views refer to God's sovereignty. Either you believe in it with respect to salvation (Calvinism) or you reject it with respect to salvation (Arminianism). Certain people might parse the aspects of it differently but the main categories are these. The only other options are Pelagianism or semi pelagianism.
An arminian will claim to believe in God's sovereignty but it is clear that such a person has denied the sovereignty of God in its traditional definition and teaching. He must redefine what it has always meaned to fit his system. Sovereignty means that God is in control of all things, including the salvation of individuals. An arminian says that man is in control of his own salvation because he alone gets to make that choice. Biblical issues aside, these are the only two basic options.
Thank you Pastor Larry. Helps me to understand a lot better.
But or So, if this is the case, then why do some say they are almost one way, but lean to the other way too.
Take for instance...(Please I am just trying to figure this out so bare with me)....I believe God is in total control of everything. He is the Creator. We were created for His pleasure. Yet I believe God gives us choices.
I believe it is Gods grace and faith that leads me to him, as He holds His hand out for me to grab...I decide whether to grab it or not.
I see as Jonah tried to flea from God and run as far away from God as He could, God showed Jonah there was nowhere to hide from Him. And for three days Jonah was in the belly of the fish. It was when Jonah repented of His disobedience with God, did God release him from the fish.
I also see God leading the Israelites through the wilderness, yet man still sinned, and God was right in front leading man.
I do believe when Sherrie is in control of things everything is a total mess. But when God is in control everything is correct and runs smoothly.
So how far from the correct logic am I? Which am I? If I am wrong...where am I wrong?
Sherrie
But or So, if this is the case, then why do some say they are almost one way, but lean to the other way too.
Take for instance...(Please I am just trying to figure this out so bare with me)....I believe God is in total control of everything. He is the Creator. We were created for His pleasure. Yet I believe God gives us choices.
I believe it is Gods grace and faith that leads me to him, as He holds His hand out for me to grab...I decide whether to grab it or not.
I see as Jonah tried to flea from God and run as far away from God as He could, God showed Jonah there was nowhere to hide from Him. And for three days Jonah was in the belly of the fish. It was when Jonah repented of His disobedience with God, did God release him from the fish.
I also see God leading the Israelites through the wilderness, yet man still sinned, and God was right in front leading man.
I do believe when Sherrie is in control of things everything is a total mess. But when God is in control everything is correct and runs smoothly.
So how far from the correct logic am I? Which am I? If I am wrong...where am I wrong?
Sherrie
Yes, Sovereign Grace. This is the position for which the name 'Baptist' was given to them who were first called Christian. This position held that only those who were believers were eligible for Baptism. Just thought I would put my two cents worth in.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Because few of us have a totally consistent philosophy. For instance, an arminian believes that they can lose their salvation. But many arminians believe in eternal security. Don't think that these names mean total agreement. As I say, they are just broad headings for a general position.
For instance, when someone says, "I am a calvinist," they mean no less than that they believe God sovereignly and freely elects certain individuals to salvation without any basis in what that person does.
As for your example, I would say that God does give us choices from our perspective but he has already ordained (not necessarily caused) the outcome of those choices.
Humanly speaking, I would agree. But we must understand that your choice to "grab him" was ordained by him when he elected you to salvation before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4).
Depending on what you mean by what I have cited above, it depends. At first glance it seems you would be an arminian (that is not a slam). But I would question how your reconcile that with your previous statement that "God is in total control of everything." Was he in control of your reaching out and grabbing him? This is the question that arminians will answer in the negative if they think through the issues involved. If they answer it positive, it shows that they don't really grasp what the issues are. Again, that is not a slam on anyone.
At the root, it depends on whether man's salvation depends on God's choice or on his own unaided choice.
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Yelsew
Guest
For by Grace...God's Grace toward his created man, God's Work for our salvation.
ye are saved...God is the one who performs salvation
Through Faith...God is not in need of faith, so this must mean by MAN's faith! Imagine, Man's faith is REQUIRED for MAN's Salvation! "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."
And not of yourself...Each individual "self" cannot do the saving!
It is a gift of God...Something that we the individual "selfs" did not earn nor do we, according to our deeds, deserve it.
Not of Works...It is impossible to do enough good works to earn it!
Lest any man should boast...Therefore we have nothing we can boast about because God did the work that is Salvation.
He created in us the means of believing by which we can accept his gift of Salvation through our individual faith. The Gift of Salvation is already ours, and was given to us through God's only Begotten son, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, The Messiah. We must believe it in order to receive it. For that reason, and that reason alone, man has "control" of his own salvation.
Some of you will argue that without the intervention of God, man cannot believe. "Cannot" and "will not" are two different things, so show us in scriptures that man cannot believe.
There is nothing in scripture that says that man does not have the ability to believe. While there are many examples in scripture where Jesus asked, for example, "do you believe"? If man does not have the ability to believe, Jesus was wasting his breath by asking that question.
Belief and Faith are the same thing. To say that Abraham had Faith, but did not believe, is shear stupidity, and none of you would do so! So with what did Abraham believe? The same thing that is in us by which we believe, the God created ability to do so.
If you have ever traveled to the Grand Canyon, you now possess knowledge that the Grand Canyon is indeed a graaaannnd Canyon. However, before you actually visited it, the best you could do is believe it to be so, based on the witness of those who had been there. Your believing that the canyon exists and that it is indeed grand, did not make that canyon, someone else made the canyon, you simply believed it existed. Having been there you now know it exists and need rely no longer on believing it does.
Salvation is like unto the Grand Canyon. You have heard that it is big, and wonderful, but because you are not there in Salvation you can only believe that it exists, and that it waits for you. If you stop believing that Salvation is there and waiting for you, then surely you are not going to experience it. But, if you continue to believe in your salvation, you will one day experience it and all belief will vanish in the light of Knowledge.
So, Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is true, but it requires on going continuous belief (believing) in the one who saves. Jesus, The Christ, Saves.
ye are saved...God is the one who performs salvation
Through Faith...God is not in need of faith, so this must mean by MAN's faith! Imagine, Man's faith is REQUIRED for MAN's Salvation! "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."
And not of yourself...Each individual "self" cannot do the saving!
It is a gift of God...Something that we the individual "selfs" did not earn nor do we, according to our deeds, deserve it.
Not of Works...It is impossible to do enough good works to earn it!
Lest any man should boast...Therefore we have nothing we can boast about because God did the work that is Salvation.
He created in us the means of believing by which we can accept his gift of Salvation through our individual faith. The Gift of Salvation is already ours, and was given to us through God's only Begotten son, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, The Messiah. We must believe it in order to receive it. For that reason, and that reason alone, man has "control" of his own salvation.
Some of you will argue that without the intervention of God, man cannot believe. "Cannot" and "will not" are two different things, so show us in scriptures that man cannot believe.
There is nothing in scripture that says that man does not have the ability to believe. While there are many examples in scripture where Jesus asked, for example, "do you believe"? If man does not have the ability to believe, Jesus was wasting his breath by asking that question.
Belief and Faith are the same thing. To say that Abraham had Faith, but did not believe, is shear stupidity, and none of you would do so! So with what did Abraham believe? The same thing that is in us by which we believe, the God created ability to do so.
If you have ever traveled to the Grand Canyon, you now possess knowledge that the Grand Canyon is indeed a graaaannnd Canyon. However, before you actually visited it, the best you could do is believe it to be so, based on the witness of those who had been there. Your believing that the canyon exists and that it is indeed grand, did not make that canyon, someone else made the canyon, you simply believed it existed. Having been there you now know it exists and need rely no longer on believing it does.
Salvation is like unto the Grand Canyon. You have heard that it is big, and wonderful, but because you are not there in Salvation you can only believe that it exists, and that it waits for you. If you stop believing that Salvation is there and waiting for you, then surely you are not going to experience it. But, if you continue to believe in your salvation, you will one day experience it and all belief will vanish in the light of Knowledge.
So, Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is true, but it requires on going continuous belief (believing) in the one who saves. Jesus, The Christ, Saves.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Sherrie,
God has given us His will in His Word, but He does not "control" what we do, we have the control to be obedient or disobedient, regardless of what our station in life may be. Our control is based on what we believe about God, and the amount of our lives that we submit to Him. If you are totally submitted to God, then you will not obey your own desires. If you submit 10% to God you will be 90% not submitted to Him. Can you see the relationship? That is why it is paramount that we submit fully to God, in order for our faith to be counted as Righteousness. That is why our individual belief in Jesus is so essential to our salvation.
No, that does not mean that we can get by on 10% submission simply because we believe in Jesus. Yes we will be saved, but we will have our lives judged as if by fire, and only what is done for, or in accordance with the will of, God will come through the fire refined as pure gold. All else will be consumed as if it were wood, hay, and stubble.
God is not in the "Control" business, He has already done all the work, and that work was finished by His beloved Son Jesus. God is in the Receiving business. That is, he receives what we submit to him, and blesses our efforts. Without his blessings, our lives are surely full of havoc.
When Sherrie is doing that which God established as his will for Sherrie, everything is OK. When Sherrie does that which Sherrie establishes to be the will of God for Sherrie, things are not so OK!.
God has given us His will in His Word, but He does not "control" what we do, we have the control to be obedient or disobedient, regardless of what our station in life may be. Our control is based on what we believe about God, and the amount of our lives that we submit to Him. If you are totally submitted to God, then you will not obey your own desires. If you submit 10% to God you will be 90% not submitted to Him. Can you see the relationship? That is why it is paramount that we submit fully to God, in order for our faith to be counted as Righteousness. That is why our individual belief in Jesus is so essential to our salvation.
No, that does not mean that we can get by on 10% submission simply because we believe in Jesus. Yes we will be saved, but we will have our lives judged as if by fire, and only what is done for, or in accordance with the will of, God will come through the fire refined as pure gold. All else will be consumed as if it were wood, hay, and stubble.
God is not in the "Control" business, He has already done all the work, and that work was finished by His beloved Son Jesus. God is in the Receiving business. That is, he receives what we submit to him, and blesses our efforts. Without his blessings, our lives are surely full of havoc.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I can assure you that I am of the Church of Jesus of the Bible, and no other!
I have no affiliation with any congregation, denomination or sect of organized religion. I am unhyphenated Christian. My allegience is to the Living Son of God, Jesus the Christ only.
That places me squarely in the Bride of Christ for which I am eternally grateful.
I have no affiliation with any congregation, denomination or sect of organized religion. I am unhyphenated Christian. My allegience is to the Living Son of God, Jesus the Christ only.
That places me squarely in the Bride of Christ for which I am eternally grateful.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
This statement is impossible as it denies the very identified bride which Christ has 'chosen.'
Bro. Dallas
Song of Solomon
5.8-9 </font>[/QUOTE]Define for me the Bride of Christ!
Christ's Wife.
Bro. Dallas
This wife is one who is peculiar and doctrinally sound (ie--she will be without spot, she will be blameless, she will be as a virgin because she is espoused to Him).
She is local and visible, just as any wife is. She is not and cannot be universal nor invisible, if so, then the 'sin' of adultery is a joke, for as I am married, so Christ gave the example of Himself as the Husband of the Wife, my status as a husband does not mean that my wife is universal nor invisible, and it means nothing of the sort for Christ who purchased His Bride with His own Blood.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
[ April 23, 2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
Bro. Dallas
This wife is one who is peculiar and doctrinally sound (ie--she will be without spot, she will be blameless, she will be as a virgin because she is espoused to Him).
She is local and visible, just as any wife is. She is not and cannot be universal nor invisible, if so, then the 'sin' of adultery is a joke, for as I am married, so Christ gave the example of Himself as the Husband of the Wife, my status as a husband does not mean that my wife is universal nor invisible, and it means nothing of the sort for Christ who purchased His Bride with His own Blood.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
[ April 23, 2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
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Yelsew
Guest
Nice Tease, now What specifically is the Bride of Christ?
It is not possible to be both, they conflict.
Most Christian's are somewhere in between these two poles. We must remember that this is a secondary issue. It is not essential to being a Christian or a Baptist. Baptist's have historically been Calvinists, Arminians and everything in between.
Essentially the fundamental difference between the 2 camps is whether there are preselected specific individuals who have been predetermind by God to believe - this is the Calvinist position.
Jacob.
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Yelsew
Guest
Can you refresh my memory?
Where in scriptures is it stated that the elect are predetermined to believe?