Is it really synergism?

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

You failed to understand the point of my last arguement. Metaphysical analysis to work must be done in pairs. You can have points of view A, B, C, D, E, F, etc. One would compare A with B. Then if B is removed, then A against C and C against A. And so one.

Perhaps, or perhaps you misunderstand mine. Where is the guarantee that any of your “A, B, C, D, E, F, etc.,” will be correct? Nowhere. However, you can compare A with 'not A,' and perhaps make some progress, if A is sufficiently well-defined and isolated. And we must be prepared for the possibility of paradox. Some things may not be humanly resolvable.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What I hold to is that man does not go seeking after God without some revelation from Him about Him to lost man. Romans 1 says that what can be understood about God is revealed by creation. We cannot ignore that yet every statement I have read fails to mention it or consider it part of the salvic process. Further, scripture says that faith comes from the gospel. Now combine that with Jesus' statement that He will draw all men....we have to consider what that means how does the drawing occur? I hold that the drawing occurs when God sends the gospel (the death, burial, & resurrection) is the drawing Jesus talked about. The gospel being presented is in fact, according to scripture, the drawing of Jesus being lifted up.

Creation reveals God, & the gospel opens man's heart up to salvation. What is the Holy Spirit's direct role in all of this? The Holy Spirit inspired word of God, & the gospel as it is written and delivered which has the power that leads to salvation. Does lost man need an extra measure of grace, by God, to open his heart? If so that would appear to contradict Romans 1. Does man need to be regenerated before He can understand and receive the gospel? Scripture never indicates that idea.

I do not see my position as being similar to cals or arms.

OK.... so how does a brain damaged person meet that criterion?

 

[Revmitchell]

OK.... so how does a brain damaged person meet that criterion?

Have you found some scripture that asks that very question?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Have you found some scripture that asks that very question?

no, I have a sister who is/was cerebral palesy

 

[Reynolds]

What I hold to is that man does not go seeking after God without some revelation from Him about Him to lost man. Romans 1 says that what can be understood about God is revealed by creation. We cannot ignore that yet every statement I have read fails to mention it or consider it part of the salvic process. Further, scripture says that faith comes from the gospel. Now combine that with Jesus' statement that He will draw all men....we have to consider what that means how does the drawing occur? I hold that the drawing occurs when God sends the gospel (the death, burial, & resurrection) is the drawing Jesus talked about. The gospel being presented is in fact, according to scripture, the drawing of Jesus being lifted up.

Creation reveals God, & the gospel opens man's heart up to salvation. What is the Holy Spirit's direct role in all of this? The Holy Spirit inspired word of God, & the gospel as it is written and delivered which has the power that leads to salvation. Does lost man need an extra measure of grace, by God, to open his heart? If so that would appear to contradict Romans 1. Does man need to be regenerated before He can understand and receive the gospel? Scripture never indicates that idea.

I do not see my position as being similar to cals or arms.

I don't think C.A. ignores Romans 1 at all. C.A. sees Romans 1 as declaring guilt, it does not see it as providing redemption. The Presbetyrian form of Calvinism uses the Romans 1 revelation in nature as a central theme.

Are you saying that The Holy Spirit does not have to issue an individual drawing to a person for him to be saved? The only drawing of The Holy Spirit was His inspiration of The Bible? I am wanting to make sure I understand you correctly, because that is not the belief of the "traditionalists" in the SBC.

 

[Revmitchell]

no, I have a sister who is/was cerebral palesy

Early on I was director of my church's Nursing Home Ministry before I ever became pastor. I would gather residents to the day room and hold a service to include singing and preaching. Often we would have residents that were unable to respond in anyway to anyone's engagement towards them. There was one lady in particular who had a pvc wheel chair and she just moved all day long around the halls by pulling herself with her feet. However, when you tried to talk with her there was no life in her eyes and no response from her in any way.

I had been going to this particular Nursing Home for a few years sunday after sunday and holding a service every week. Week in and week out she was there with no response to anything but sit still for the service never looking anyone in the eye nor responding to anyone. Finally, one sunday after I preached the gospel at the end of the service I asked everyone if anyone had prayed with my leading to receive Jesus. She tried to raise her hand.

After the service everyone week I would wheel everyone down to the dinning room for lunch. I tried to be as much of a help to the staff as I could. Anyway, I took her last. Just before I took her down I asked her did she ask Jesus into her heart. For the first time ever she looked up as me with life in her eyes. It looked like she was using every ounce of strength she had to respond to me and with great big lip movements for each letter she uttered she said yes!

Then all the life left her eyes and I never saw her respond to anything again. There are several reasons why we know that God can and does work in the lives of those who are mentally handicapped. But one of the most glaring reasons is I have seen it.

 

[Reynolds]

Early on I was director of my church's Nursing Home Ministry before I ever became pastor. I would gather residents to the day room and hold a service to include singing and preaching. Often we would have residents that were unable to respond in anyway to anyone's engagement towards them. There was one lady in particular who had a pvc wheel chair and she just moved all day long around the halls by pulling herself with her feet. However, when you tried to talk with her there was no life in her eyes and no response from her in any way.

I had been going to this particular Nursing Home for a few years sunday after sunday and holding a service every week. Week in and week out she was there with no response to anything but sit still for the service never looking anyone in the eye nor responding to anyone. Finally, one sunday after I preached the gospel at the end of the service I asked everyone if anyone had prayed with my leading to receive Jesus. She tried to raise her hand.

After the service everyone week I would wheel everyone down to the dinning room for lunch. I tried to be as much of a help to the staff as I could. Anyway, I took her last. Just before I took her down I asked her did she ask Jesus into her heart. For the first time ever she looked up as me with life in her eyes. It looked like she was using every ounce of strength she had to respond to me and with great big lip movements for each letter she uttered she said yes!

Then all the life left her eyes and I never saw her respond to anything again. There are several reasons why we know that God can and does work in the lives of those who are mentally handicapped. But one of the most glaring reasons is I have seen it.

What you describe with this lady is exactly what you seem to be disagreeing with. She did not have the capacity to respond. Response was beyond her natural ability. Yet, she responded. That is plainly a super natural awakening done by a call of The Holy Spirit.

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't think C.A. ignores Romans 1 at all. C.A. sees Romans 1 as declaring guilt, it does not see it as providing redemption.

Oh, then you need to read the rest of it.

Are you saying that The Holy Spirit does not have to issue an individual drawing to a person for him to be saved? The only drawing of The Holy Spirit was His inspiration of The Bible? I am wanting to make sure I understand you correctly, because that is not the belief of the "traditionalists" in the SBC.

There is not a single verse to back that up. It is only assumed. Yet scripture clearly states that the gospel has the power to salvation.

I hold to the sufficiency of the gospel.

 

[Revmitchell]

What you describe with this lady is exactly what you seem to be disagreeing with. She did not have the capacity to respond. Response was beyond her natural ability. Yet, she responded. That is plainly a super natural awakening done by a call of The Holy Spirit.

So, if your explanation is true, then I am somehow required to expect that of everyone else?

 

[Reynolds]

So, if your explanation is true, then I am somehow required to expect that of everyone else?

No. If your view is true you should expect it of everyone. The Gospel presentation should produce the same result every time. You obviously described a special call of The Spirit of God.

 

[Reynolds]

Oh, then you need to read the rest of it.



There is not a single verse to back that up. It is only assumed. Yet scripture clearly states that the gospel has the power to salvation.

I hold to the sufficiency of the gospel.

"The rest of it" is the part I am talking about.
Scripture plainly states that no man can come to The Son unless The Father draws him. Scripture further states that without The Son, man can do nothing.

 

[Revmitchell]

"The rest of it" is the part I am talking about.
Scripture plainly states that no man can come to The Son unless The Father draws him. Scripture further states that without The Son, man can do nothing.

OK?

 

[1689Dave]

It's all monergism in both camps. It is supernatural mongergism in the Calvinist camp (God makes the first move). And naturalistic monergism in the Arminian camp (man makes the first move).

 

[Reynolds]

It's all monergism in both camps. It is supernatural mongergism in the Calvinist camp (God makes the first move). And naturalistic monergism in the Arminian camp (man makes the first move).

I don't see where in Arminian doctrine it even remotely implies man makes the first move.
In fact, it says just the opposite.

 

[1689Dave]

I don't see where in Arminian doctrine it even remotely implies man makes the first move.
In fact, it says just the opposite.

It is still man who in the power of the flesh must make the first move.

 

[Reynolds]

It is still man who in the power of the flesh must make the first move.

No. It is God who through His Spirit awakens the totally depraved spirit of the man.
Do you know anything about Arminianism? You seem to be describing "traditionalism".

 

[1689Dave]

No. It is God who through His Spirit awakens the totally depraved spirit of the man.

It still comes down to naturalism VS super-naturalism.

 

[Reynolds]

It still comes down to naturalism VS super-naturalism.

No it does not. Read the Remonstrance.

 

[percho]

It is still man who in the power of the flesh must make the first move.

If the above statement is true the following could have 0 (zero) truth to it!


Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[Gup20]

We are going to have to disagree here Is that all right with you?

You disagree with the scriptures I posted?

These scriptures follow the salvation by faith template in Genesis. Of course, the first person saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ is Abraham.

Romans 4:8-13 (NASB) 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

Circumcision is a picture of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is gift given as the seal of righteousness one obtains while uncircumcised or unfilled with the Spirit.

Romans 2:29 (NASB)
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB) "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.​

Abraham had faith & was made righteous while uncircumcised. He is the father of all who believe. Since we all follow Abraham’s template, we too have faith prior to the indwelling of the Spirit or seal of the righteousness of faith.

Romans 7:22 (NASB) For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Romans 8:10 (NASB) If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.​

The outer flesh dying and being separated from the living, inner man is exactly the picture circumcision is meant to represent. This is the purpose of circumcision... to point to the Holy Spirit in us - our inner man.

Therefore, we see from the first Christian, Abraham, the example that his faith came first, then righteousness, then circumcision representing the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

The reason Abraham was made righteous for his faith was because he believed the gospel of Jesus Christ. (Gal 3:16)