Is it sin to lie or kill for the right MOTIVE?

[freeatlast]

I think I know what Luke is saying:

The act of taking a man's life: Done out of anger or envy it's a sin. Done for justice by the duly appointed magistrate, then it's a righteous act.

Making up a story: To slander or otherwise injure one's neighbor, or to pervert justice (which indirectly injures the public), it is a lie.

To mislead God's enemies for the preservation of innocent life, an act of faith. (Rahab, the Egyptian midwives . . .)

Rahab's lie was not from faith. I am afraid that many in the church do not understand what faith is. Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.What Rahab did was done by her natural self not faith. She was a prostitute and no doubt a liar as well who simply acted out what was best for her in a time of trouble. Her faith was to trust (turn to) the One and true God and that she did, but her lie was not of faith.
The midwives did act on faith by not murdering the babies as they were born, but again their lies were not of faith. If they had exercised faith they would have not lied and suffered the results of their faith or trusted God to rescue them like He did Daniel.
It is no different then a missionary going into a hostel place. They can preach even when told not to in faith and suffer the consequences of their faith, or they can decide not preach and not exercise their faith and not suffer any consequences. Paul is a good example. He chose to live by faith and preached instead of not preaching when told not to and he suffered. Sin (lack of faith) may bring a reprieve to suffering, but it also brings an end to certain rewards. No sin is ever done in faith even if the sin is justified in the mind of sinner because they claim it did good. These people are self deceived who hold that view because no sin is of faith.
Motive NEVER turns sin into faith or righteousness. However it can blind the one with the motive into self justification while they reject what faith and righteousness is.
Certainly the saying in Jer. 17:9 is never more true then when someone trys to justify sin by calling it righteousness.
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[drfuss]

Okay, here is a situation that actually happened years ago.

The pastor had in his church a family that he knew was not very clean. On his visit, he noticed that their kitchen and the rest of the house was quite dirty. They did not keep themselves very clean either.

One day a short time after he had become pastor, they arrived at his door and gave him some pies they had baked. The pastor graciously accepted the pies and then threw the pies out after they had left. A the next church service, they asked the pastor how he liked their pies. He joyfully answered them that the pies did not last long, intentionally implying that he liked them. The family was happy that he liked the pies they had baked.

Had he refused the pies or told them he threw out the pies, they would have been offended.

Was he lying?
If so, was the lying justified?
Have you done the same type of thing?

 

[freeatlast]

Okay, here is a situation that actually happened years ago.

The pastor had in his church a family that he knew were not very clean. On his visit, he noticed that their kitchen and the rest of the house was quite dirty. They did not keep themselves very clean either.

One day a short time after he had become pastor, they arrived at his door and gave him some pies they had baked. The pastor graciously accepted the pies and then threw the pies out after they had left. A the next church service, they asked the pastor how he liked their pies. He joyfully answered them that the pies did not last long, intentionally implying that he liked them. The family was happy that he liked the pies they had baked.

Had he refused the pies or told them he threw out the pies, they would have been offended.

Was he lying?
If so, was the lying justified?
Have you done the same type of thing?

it is always interesting to see those that always try and justify sin in some manner. Just because a person is a pastor does not mean he has faith to live through every circumstance. Lying is deception and yes he lied. His lie was to make him look better then he was and cover his sin (shame for not eating the pies). It is in fact an act of cowardness. He was given the pies and he took them knowing that they expected him to eat them. He should have eaten them or refused them, but instead he lied. It was not their feelings he was trying to save. It was his lack of honesty and shame he was covering and he took honor that was not his. He dishonored himself and worst the Lord. I would not want him as my pastor as you would never know if he was lying to you.

 

[drfuss]

it is always interesting to see those that always try and justify sin in some manner. Just because a person is a pastor does not mean he has faith to live through every circumstance. Lying is deception and yes he lied. His lie was to make him look better then he was and cover his sin (shame for not eating the pies). It is in fact an act of cowardness. He was given the pies and he took them knowing that they expected him to eat them. He should have eaten them or refused them, but instead he lied. It was not their feelings he was trying to save. It was his lack of honesty and shame he was covering and he took honor that was not his. He dishonored himself and worst the Lord. I would not want him as my pastor as you would never know if he was lying to you.

He was my relative and I was not in his church, so he could afford to be candid with me about it. His justification was that he was protecting the feelings of that family. My reaction was that he wanted to remain popular with those in his church.

However, this raises another question. Is it okay to return compliments by telling people they look nice when you really don't think so? This could really be an issue with women who are expected to return compliments to other women about their clothing, hair, etc.

 

[Amy.G]

Rahab's lie was not from faith.

That's not what the bible says.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

 

[Luke2427]

That doesn't mean that my motives aren't right if I were to enact my own judgment, which is the point in question, remember?

No. I do not know what you are talking about now.

 

[Luke2427]

That's not what the bible says.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Good point.

 

[Amy.G]

Good point.

Even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then. :laugh::laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

That's not what the bible says.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Amy you need to read the text. It does not say by faith she lied. She received the spys by faith, but her lie was not of faith. God could have protected them without her lie as he did Daniel or his three friends. No sin is ever of God.

 

[freeatlast]

He was my relative and I was not in his church, so he could afford to be candid with me about it. His justification was that he was protecting the feelings of that family. My reaction was that he wanted to remain popular with those in his church.

However, this raises another question. Is it okay to return compliments by telling people they look nice when you really don't think so? This could really be an issue with women who are expected to return compliments to other women about their clothing, hair, etc.

Yes it could be a problem. One has to decide if they are going to be a liar and deceiver or one who speaks truth following the Lord. We have to decide who we are going to follow and yes that can cause persecution.
2Tim. 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

 

[Allan]

That's not what the bible says.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Amy.. the 'by faith' it is specifically referencing is that the reason she did not die along with all the others of the town is because she received/believed the spies peacefully and did not alert the town. Therefore- it was by or due to her faith she did not die like the others, shone by her reception of the spies in peace (paraphrase)

This passage however can not be used to support or condone her lying to protect the men, as the passage in no way address this.

 

[freeatlast]

Amy.. the 'by faith' it is specifically referencing is that the reason she did not die along with all the others of the town is because she received/believed the spies peacefully and did not alert the town. Therefore- it was by or due to her faith she did not die like the others, shone by her reception of the spies in peace (paraphrase)

This passage however can not be used to support or condone her lying to protect the men, as the passage in no way address this.

Very good! :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

No. I do not know what you are talking about now.

I think if you go back and read my discourse with Aaron you will better understand. Its not just about motive it is also about means.

The example I gave was:

A man wants to stop abortions (good motive) kills the abortionist (evil means).
You want to stop abortions (good motive) so you vote for pro-life candidate (right means)

The first is sin regardless of the good motive, because he used evil means. Understand?

 

[pinoybaptist]

When I was with Arminians we went out "soul winning" and had a WW2 vet as "prospect". He bluntly told us he did not want to be a Christian, and he would never qualify as a Christian. We asked him why and he gave us a "parable" for an answer.

He said: A certain resistance fighter on his way to visit his folks, and unarmed, met a Jap patrol on the trails and he was subjected to harassment and investigation and basically the Jap wanted to know if he was a guerilla and if he was a member of the team that ambushed another Jap patrol a few days back.

Now, the "prospect" said, if he says "yes" because he is a Christian and not supposed to lie the enemy will without compunction behead him after extracting by torture more information from him. If he says no, he would have lied and sinned and now, regardless of motive, which is to protect others, he will be accountable to God for the Bible says we all must give account for each word that we utter.

Either way, his motives were good.
But consequences were grave no matter which path he took.
How would any of you deal with this dillema ?

 

[freeatlast]

When I was with Arminians we went out "soul winning" and had a WW2 vet as "prospect". He bluntly told us he did not want to be a Christian, and he would never qualify as a Christian. We asked him why and he gave us a "parable" for an answer.

He said: A certain resistance fighter on his way to visit his folks, and unarmed, met a Jap patrol on the trails and he was subjected to harassment and investigation and basically the Jap wanted to know if he was a guerilla and if he was a member of the team that ambushed another Jap patrol a few days back.

Now, the "prospect" said, if he says "yes" because he is a Christian and not supposed to lie the enemy will without compunction behead him after extracting by torture more information from him. If he says no, he would have lied and sinned and now, regardless of motive, which is to protect others, he will be accountable to God for the Bible says we all must give account for each word that we utter.

Either way, his motives were good.
But consequences were grave no matter which path he took.
How would any of you deal with this dillema ?

No his motives were not good. A lost person can not have good motives and this man was lost so there is no dilemma . I would present the gospel to him as to any sinner. If he has come up with some reasoning to reject I would dust my feet and move on. His salvation is God's business not mine and it is the Spirit's place to enlighten. Mine is to give the gospel not convince them against all reasoning and save them.

 

[pinoybaptist]

No his motives were not good. A lost person can not have good motives and this man was lost so there is no dilemma . I would present the gospel to him as to any sinner. If he has come up with some reasoning to reject I would dust my feet and move on. His salvation is God's business not mine and it is the Spirit's place to enlighten. Mine is to give the gospel not convince them against all reasoning and save them.

we were already sharing the gospel to him.
he flat out refused to "join the club".
and the reason for refusing is stated right there.
he cannot live the Christian standard.
the questions are: would you lie ? or would you tell the truth ?
the OP is about motives.
his motives were: his life, or the Christian standard.

 

[Luke2427]

Amy you need to read the text. It does not say by faith she lied. She received the spys by faith, but her lie was not of faith. God could have protected them without her lie as he did Daniel or his three friends. No sin is ever of God.

No. You are wrong and Amy is right.

The text says that she received the spies and James elaborates further:

And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

She not only received them but sent them out another way deceiving her country men, violating their trust, being disloyal to her people and the ONLY way she was able to do that is by lying about it.

And the Word of God commends her.

The problem is when our words and thoughts carry more clout in our own minds than the Word of God does.

This is what Amy was pointing out in another thread about ladies who think God would never do some things that the Bible clearly says he does. We take our preferences to the Bible and press the Bible to say what we WANT it to say rather than press our preferences into the mold of the Word of God.

 

[Luke2427]

I think if you go back and read my discourse with Aaron you will better understand. Its not just about motive it is also about means.

The example I gave was:

A man wants to stop abortions (good motive) kills the abortionist (evil means).
You want to stop abortions (good motive) so you vote for pro-life candidate (right means)

The first is sin regardless of the good motive, because he used evil means. Understand?

No. This is clearly not ok.

His motive is to ignore the Word of God and take matters into his own hands.

This is great sin.

He does not have to right to unilaterally go against the state which God has set up and execute sinners.

For him to violate the clear commands of Scripture is tremendous wickedness and the man who blows up an abortion clinic killing doctors and nurses is a rebel against the Almighty and will be judged accordingly.

 

[freeatlast]

we were already sharing the gospel to him.
he flat out refused to "join the club".
and the reason for refusing is stated right there.
he cannot live the Christian standard.
the questions are: would you lie ? or would you tell the truth ?
the OP is about motives.
his motives were: his life, or the Christian standard.

In giving the gospel that is the truth and I would do exactly what i said, no more and no less. If he had a pre-made excuse I would just walk away and leave him with it. My motive would be to tell the person about the Lord and their need for salvation. if they would not listen I would not press them.

 

[freeatlast]

No. You are wrong and Amy is right.

The text says that she received the spies and James elaborates further:

And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

She not only received them but sent them out another way deceiving her country men, violating their trust, being disloyal to her people and the ONLY way she was able to do that is by lying about it.

And the Word of God commends her.

The problem is when our words and thoughts carry more clout in our own minds than the Word of God does.

This is what Amy was pointing out in another thread about ladies who think God would never do some things that the Bible clearly says he does. We take our preferences to the Bible and press the Bible to say what we WANT it to say rather than press our preferences into the mold of the Word of God.

You are taking a passage out of context. God is not commending her for the lie. She is being commended for her faith which is seen in an action which James is trying to show has to be present for faith to be real. If lying was justified before God then you can be sure that the Lord would have done it as well as Paul, Peter, and every other apostle, but you cannot find any such suggestion. You seem to forget Rahab was a heathen who had no idea of righteousness and did what she did out of who she was a liar and prostitute. Show me one NT example of anyone lying who is saved and they are commended. Sin is never a tool of God.