is it true Historically In Church Age NO Sign Gifts Operated Until 20th Century?

[JesusFan]

That there were no reliable recordings of ANY individuals/churches/groups practicing Gifts like healing/prophesying/tongues etc until early 1900's at so called "Azuzu revivals?"

None were ever recorded especially in baptist circles?

 

[Iconoclast]

That there were no reliable recordings of ANY individuals/churches/groups practicing Gifts like healing/prophesying/tongues etc until early 1900's at so called "Azuzu revivals?"

None were ever recorded especially in baptist circles?

None in history...and none today....They were completed.We have a complete word...Jesus has not forgotten to tell us anything. We have all that pertains to life,and godliness.

Has God healed in answer to prayer.....yes. SIGN GIFTS.....5 fold ministry NO.

 

[JesusFan]

None in history...and none today....They were completed.We have a complete word...Jesus has not forgotten to tell us anything. We have all that pertains to life,and godliness.

Has God healed in answer to prayer.....yes. SIGN GIFTS.....5 fold ministry NO.

Are you assuming though that ALL sign gifts would still have a revelatory aspect?

Doesn't Wayne Grudem hold they are valid today, and isn't he considered to be both 'reformed" and "baptist" respected Theologian?

 

[Iconoclast]

Are you assuming though that ALL sign gifts would still have a revelatory aspect?

Doesn't Wayne Grudem hold they are valid today, and isn't he considered to be both 'reformed" and "baptist" respected Theologian?

Wayne Grudem errors completely on the gifts. Many like parts of His systematic theology...but it is almost universally criticized in the area of gifts,and the Spirit...he has many errors here....opening the door to false charismatic ideas...
When you go "outside the confessions" denying parts of them...you are no longer a Reformed Baptist.

When people say they like his book...they like that he brings it up to date as far as language goes.....and he raises some questions that can help in some other areas......on these areas he is off...redefining truth

here is a link;
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj2h.pdf

 

[DHK]

That there were no reliable recordings of ANY individuals/churches/groups practicing Gifts like healing/prophesying/tongues etc until early 1900's at so called "Azuzu revivals?"

None were ever recorded especially in baptist circles?

The sign gifts were:
1. signs.
2. gifts, and supernatural gifts.
3. They were not simply answers to prayer as we see in our lives. God heals, but heals in answer to prayer.

Here is an example of the Biblical gift of healing:

There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)
--Note how many people there were healed. All the cities round about, not just Jerusalem--from there they brought their sick, and Peter healed them all, even the paraplegics, the broken limbs, the deaf, blind, all that came to him, and he healed them instantly.

The equivalent of that is for a faith healer today to go into the ER of a hospital and heal all who come into it, finish there and go up and down the corridors and heal all that are in the hospital. That is what Peter was doing--healing all that were in all the hospitals in all the cities round about Jerusalem.

No one does that or can do that today.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

What do you do with Mark 16:17-18? Jesus never gave an expiration date on these signs that would follow those who believe. Do we base our interpretation on our own experiences or on God's Word? I've never seen the signs either, but I can't just ignore Christ's own words.



And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(Mar 16:17-18)

 

[JesusFan]

What do you do with Mark 16:17-18? Jesus never gave an expiration date on these signs that would follow those who believe. Do we base our interpretation on our own experiences or on God's Word? I've never seen the signs either, but I can't just ignore Christ's own words.



And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(Mar 16:17-18)

Two answeres usually given to address this..

NOT found in best manuscripts, added on by scribes/copiers
JUST recording what the Apostles able to do, not for us today!

 

[JesusFan]

The sign gifts were:
1. signs.
2. gifts, and supernatural gifts.
3. They were not simply answers to prayer as we see in our lives. God heals, but heals in answer to prayer.

Here is an example of the Biblical gift of healing:

There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)
--Note how many people there were healed. All the cities round about, not just Jerusalem--from there they brought their sick, and Peter healed them all, even the paraplegics, the broken limbs, the deaf, blind, all that came to him, and he healed them instantly.

The equivalent of that is for a faith healer today to go into the ER of a hospital and heal all who come into it, finish there and go up and down the corridors and heal all that are in the hospital. That is what Peter was doing--healing all that were in all the hospitals in all the cities round about Jerusalem.

No one does that or can do that today.

Agree that the "gift" of healing operating as for jesus/peter/paul ceased in Church Age BUT

Are we just assuming that prophecies/words/tongues etc were JST used as revelation from God until Canon completed, kind of a transistion period?

Does that mean we can NOT use anything in Act/Romans/1 Corinthians etc regarding all of the Spiritual Gifts and how they are to be used?

that God had a Manual for Apiostolic Churches, another for us today?

How do we pick and choose?

 

[DHK]

Agree that the "gift" of healing operating as for jesus/peter/paul ceased in Church Age BUT

Are we just assuming that prophecies/words/tongues etc were JST used as revelation from God until Canon completed, kind of a transistion period?

Does that mean we can NOT use anything in Act/Romans/1 Corinthians etc regarding all of the Spiritual Gifts and how they are to be used?

that God had a Manual for Apiostolic Churches, another for us today?

How do we pick and choose?

They are in the same category of healing. They are "sign" gifts. Tongues especially was a sign to the Jews. Paul explained it was:

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:21-22)
--These two verses go together in context. They cannot be separated.
In verse 21 it is a fulfillment of prophecy given in Isaiah 28:11,12. People outside of the nation of Israel (Gentiles) would speak to the Jews in strange languages the message of God. This is unheard of. The Gentiles were like dogs to the Jews. They were unclean, and to receive God's message from the Gentile was anathema. But if they didn't receive it, judgment would come. This was the sign. It was a sign to the Jews. It was given to thousands of Jews on the Day of Pentecost and at various times since then.

Then in verse 22 it specifies again, but this time what kind of Jew. "Wherefore tongues are for a sign...to them that believe not. That is the unbelieving Jew. The two verses are connected with the "wherefore." They are a sign to the Jews, the unbelieving Jews. One might say, no unbelieving Jews present; no need for tongues to be spoken. But that is only one of the purposes of tongues.

 

[JesusFan]

They are in the same category of healing. They are "sign" gifts. Tongues especially was a sign to the Jews. Paul explained it was:

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:21-22)
--These two verses go together in context. They cannot be separated.
In verse 21 it is a fulfillment of prophecy given in Isaiah 28:11,12. People outside of the nation of Israel (Gentiles) would speak to the Jews in strange languages the message of God. This is unheard of. The Gentiles were like dogs to the Jews. They were unclean, and to receive God's message from the Gentile was anathema. But if they didn't receive it, judgment would come. This was the sign. It was a sign to the Jews. It was given to thousands of Jews on the Day of Pentecost and at various times since then.

Then in verse 22 it specifies again, but this time what kind of Jew. "Wherefore tongues are for a sign...to them that believe not. That is the unbelieving Jew. The two verses are connected with the "wherefore." They are a sign to the Jews, the unbelieving Jews. One might say, no unbelieving Jews present; no need for tongues to be spoken. But that is only one of the purposes of tongues.

Weren't Tongues though ALSO given by God to edify the believer, and when operating in biblical order, to the Assembly of the saints themselves?

I do realisre that Acts recorded a transistional period within the Church, as God was confirming to Jews Jesus was indeed messiah, and to also bring Gentiles to Him, but why do you see it also being transistional for espistles doctrine?

 

[DHK]

Weren't Tongues though ALSO given by God to edify the believer, and when operating in biblical order, to the Assembly of the saints themselves?

I do realisre that Acts recorded a transistional period within the Church, as God was confirming to Jews Jesus was indeed messiah, and to also bring Gentiles to Him, but why do you see it also being transistional for espistles doctrine?

In 2Cor.12:12 and in Heb.2:3,4 tongues are just one of the gifts mentioned that are "signs of the apostles." We do not have the apostles any more, and thus no need of the sign gifts or supernatural gifts of the spirit. They were for the first century only. These ones: tongues, prophesy, revelatory knowledge, were given specifically for that first century period when the entire NT was not complete. When it was complete they ceased.

 

[JesusFan]

In 2Cor.12:12 and in Heb.2:3,4 tongues are just one of the gifts mentioned that are "signs of the apostles." We do not have the apostles any more, and thus no need of the sign gifts or supernatural gifts of the spirit. They were for the first century only. These ones: tongues, prophesy, revelatory knowledge, were given specifically for that first century period when the entire NT was not complete. When it was complete they ceased.

Actually, isn't it that the Sign Gifts such as healings and miracles were done by the Apostles, but that prophesy and tongues etc were be exercised by the "laity" in Assembly, and were to be done under "biblical order?"

is it really "all or nothing" on this issue? can't we affirm Canon has closed, Miracles/healings were THE signs performed by Apostles to confirm jesus as Messiah/Christ, but that other Gifts still can function, but in a Biblical order?

 

[DHK]

Actually, isn't it that the Sign Gifts such as healings and miracles were done by the Apostles, but that prophesy and tongues etc were be exercised by the "laity" in Assembly, and were to be done under "biblical order?"

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Hebrews 2:4)
The sense of this verse is that, God bore them (the Hebrews) witness with signs and wonders (done by the Apostles) along with different miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit (which would presumably include tongues).

In 1Cor.14, Paul was rebuking them for their abuse of the use of tongues, but in doing so he says, "I thank God that I have spoken in tongues more than you all." The believers were very carnal in their usage of the gift. In fact many spoke, pretending to have it when they didn't. I would not be dogmatic about these gifts being given to the "laity." In fact they were only given to a very few.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1 Corinthians 12:28-30)
--As there were only a few apostles, and a few prophets, there were likewise only a few who had one gift or another. Not all could prophesy; not all could speak in tongues.

 

[JesusFan]

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Hebrews 2:4)
The sense of this verse is that, God bore them (the Hebrews) witness with signs and wonders (done by the Apostles) along with different miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit (which would presumably include tongues).

In 1Cor.14, Paul was rebuking them for their abuse of the use of tongues, but in doing so he says, "I thank God that I have spoken in tongues more than you all." The believers were very carnal in their usage of the gift. In fact many spoke, pretending to have it when they didn't. I would not be dogmatic about these gifts being given to the "laity." In fact they were only given to a very few.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1 Corinthians 12:28-30)
--As there were only a few apostles, and a few prophets, there were likewise only a few who had one gift or another. Not all could prophesy; not all could speak in tongues.

That was within though the "Church setting" Assembly of the believers, so that it was possible that there were "more than a few: with those giftings from the Lord...

just saying why give such a detailed way to have Gifts operating in a Church setting, when they would all cease within 100 years?

Also, have read that Prophets and Tongues were giving "revelatory" stuuf in the early Church, why, as Apostles still were alive and no need to do that?

So why couldn' those Gifts still opearte today, since they evidently were NOT scriptures, and not "inspired" as Apostles were?

 

[DHK]

That was within though the "Church setting" Assembly of the believers, so that it was possible that there were "more than a few: with those giftings from the Lord...

In a church setting because the NT had not been finished. So God gave some special gifts.

just saying why give such a detailed way to have Gifts operating in a Church setting, when they would all cease within 100 years?

Because the NT was finished; the apostles had died; judgment had passed on the Jews in 70 A.D.. They were signs. When the sign is no longer needed it is removed.

Also, have read that Prophets and Tongues were giving "revelatory" stuuf in the early Church, why, as Apostles still were alive and no need to do that?

There were 12 apostles plus Paul. Paul started over 100 churches in 3 missionary journeys. The apostles could not be everywhere all the time. Revelatory gifts were given because the NT was not complete. It was given to impart NT knowledge. With the completion of the NT these gifts cease. We now have the entire word of God.

So why couldn' those Gifts still opearte today, since they evidently were NOT scriptures, and not "inspired" as Apostles were?

--They imparted NT knowledge when there wasn't any to those that didn't have any. However that was only a minor use. The most significant or purpose of tongues was a fulfillment of prophecy--a sign to the unbelieving Jews--the rejection of which would result in judgment, as it did.

 

[Iconoclast]

What do you do with Mark 16:17-18? Jesus never gave an expiration date on these signs that would follow those who believe. Do we base our interpretation on our own experiences or on God's Word? I've never seen the signs either, but I can't just ignore Christ's own words.



And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(Mar 16:17-18)

Michael
just finish the whole passage;

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Jesus spoke to the eleven,he confirmed their word...see verse 20

12Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Michael
just finish the whole passage;


Jesus spoke to the eleven,he confirmed their word...see verse 20

What is your point? Scripture didn't say that those signs would follow the apostles, but that they would follow those who believe. That is a clear distinction.

 

[Iconoclast]

What is your point? Scripture didn't say that those signs would follow the apostles, but that they would follow those who believe. That is a clear distinction.

The signs followed those who believed,,,,,the Apostolic preaching!

19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. [/QUOTE]


The Lord working with THEM...with signs following...confirming the word

Do you see it?
Acts 2:43
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 2:42-44 (in Context)
Acts 5:12
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

 

[convicted1]

What do you do with Mark 16:17-18? Jesus never gave an expiration date on these signs that would follow those who believe. Do we base our interpretation on our own experiences or on God's Word? I've never seen the signs either, but I can't just ignore Christ's own words.

1 Cor. 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(Mar 16:17-18)

The "new tongue" is when God moves in us, when begin rejoicing, praising Him for what He has done. When began shouting, preaching, etc. Whenever God blesses me to preach His Word, I speak with a "new tongue", and this is when the holy Spirit blesses me to proclaim His Word. I can not do this in my own tongue, but when I preach His Word with my natural tongue, anointed by His Grace, I speak through the Spirit with the "new tongue"....and no, I am not talking about the "glurbling", "blarbling", "babbling" sound that the "word of faith" movement speaks about.

 

[JesusFan]

1 Cor. 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.





The "new tongue" is when God moves in us, when begin rejoicing, praising Him for what He has done. When began shouting, preaching, etc. Whenever God blesses me to preach His Word, I speak with a "new tongue", and this is when the holy Spirit blesses me to proclaim His Word. I can not do this in my own tongue, but when I preach His Word with my natural tongue, anointed by His Grace, I speak through the Spirit with the "new tongue"....and no, I am not talking about the "glurbling", "blarbling", "babbling" sound that the "word of faith" movement speaks about.

that verse that you quoted here concering time when all these gifts shall cease...

isn't that time when the imperfect becomes perfect? When there is no more need, at the Second Coming of Christ?

NOT the canon being completed and closed?