I concur with Hutton of Kent.
Robertsson of Lower Duxis Abbey
Robertsson of Lower Duxis Abbey
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Is it true that Baptists go back to John the Baptist?
- Thread starter Doug Stevens
- Start date
Brethren,
I believe the Baptist, if not in name, at least in practice go back to the banks of the Jordan River.
I believe that anyone who does not accept this is simply trying to do what they claim against those of us who do believe this, that is to increase denominationlism. The Bible teaches us that "A true witness delivereth souls..." Prov. 14.25. If we look at the material from which Jesus chose his disciples we find each were among those baptized of John, we see also Jesus received this baptism.
If the act of baptism was prevalent in John's day, why did the Pharisees ask him: John 1.25: "...,Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?" If baptism were so prevalent, this would not have been a concern, or seemed to have appeared as out of the ordinary, as though the foreruuner of the Messiah. (you may correct me if I am wrong, as I am sure you will) but I think Josephus concurs with this. Scripture also seems to show us baptism was not anything but normal.
We can go to the promise of Christ in Matt. 16 that "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." This rock is certainly none other than Christ, and in view of the context, is the revelation to the believer as to the person of Jesus, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Later, those who would pervert the church make baptism the mode of salvation, and make a man the "rock" upon which the church is built. Likewise, this denies the truthfulness of the statement of Christ that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." If baptism is the means of salvation, what is the purpose of God's revelation to Peter; (Remember, John's baptism required repentance unto God, and John preached those receiving baptism should look to the one that is to come, the Messiah) of whom Peter has just been enlightened.
It is error to assume the church, because they had not a "Baptist" name were not "Baptist" in nature, when so much of history confirms those who would persecute these scattered bodies testified to their presence at least 1200 years prior to Martin Luther.
It is not pride which causes some to claim such ability to trace to the Jordan, but rather it is desire of knowing, teaching, proclaiming, and preaching the Biblical truths. We hear such things as this doctrine fosters division and denominationalism, believe what you want, I will take scripture first and James 3.17 says: "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy."
It is because of the witness of the Word of God that I believe Baptists can so trace themselves throughout the presentation of our history, such works on the history of the Baptists often begin by attempting to deny this ability, yet in the same sentence often seperated only by a comma it is reported that such local bodies did exist holding Baptist principles, since the days of the Apostles, the Apostles were organized by "the author and finisher of our Faith" Jesus Christ. There is little more testimony needed to show the Providence of God over this body. {If we are merely looking for those that called themselves Baptist, we may be disappointed until sometime in the 1600's; likewise, if we look at some who call themselves by that name today, we also would be disappointed to learn by doctrine, principle, and spirit, they are not what they claim.}
God Bless each of you in your walk and service to Him.
Brother Dallas Eaton
Glasgow, KY
I believe the Baptist, if not in name, at least in practice go back to the banks of the Jordan River.
I believe that anyone who does not accept this is simply trying to do what they claim against those of us who do believe this, that is to increase denominationlism. The Bible teaches us that "A true witness delivereth souls..." Prov. 14.25. If we look at the material from which Jesus chose his disciples we find each were among those baptized of John, we see also Jesus received this baptism.
If the act of baptism was prevalent in John's day, why did the Pharisees ask him: John 1.25: "...,Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?" If baptism were so prevalent, this would not have been a concern, or seemed to have appeared as out of the ordinary, as though the foreruuner of the Messiah. (you may correct me if I am wrong, as I am sure you will) but I think Josephus concurs with this. Scripture also seems to show us baptism was not anything but normal.
We can go to the promise of Christ in Matt. 16 that "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." This rock is certainly none other than Christ, and in view of the context, is the revelation to the believer as to the person of Jesus, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Later, those who would pervert the church make baptism the mode of salvation, and make a man the "rock" upon which the church is built. Likewise, this denies the truthfulness of the statement of Christ that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." If baptism is the means of salvation, what is the purpose of God's revelation to Peter; (Remember, John's baptism required repentance unto God, and John preached those receiving baptism should look to the one that is to come, the Messiah) of whom Peter has just been enlightened.
It is error to assume the church, because they had not a "Baptist" name were not "Baptist" in nature, when so much of history confirms those who would persecute these scattered bodies testified to their presence at least 1200 years prior to Martin Luther.
(Cardinal Hosius, Pres. of the Council of Trent).
(Mosheim, a Lutheran)
It is not pride which causes some to claim such ability to trace to the Jordan, but rather it is desire of knowing, teaching, proclaiming, and preaching the Biblical truths. We hear such things as this doctrine fosters division and denominationalism, believe what you want, I will take scripture first and James 3.17 says: "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy."
It is because of the witness of the Word of God that I believe Baptists can so trace themselves throughout the presentation of our history, such works on the history of the Baptists often begin by attempting to deny this ability, yet in the same sentence often seperated only by a comma it is reported that such local bodies did exist holding Baptist principles, since the days of the Apostles, the Apostles were organized by "the author and finisher of our Faith" Jesus Christ. There is little more testimony needed to show the Providence of God over this body. {If we are merely looking for those that called themselves Baptist, we may be disappointed until sometime in the 1600's; likewise, if we look at some who call themselves by that name today, we also would be disappointed to learn by doctrine, principle, and spirit, they are not what they claim.}
God Bless each of you in your walk and service to Him.
Brother Dallas Eaton
Glasgow, KY
Wisdom Seeker
New Member
Yes and Yes. There are a lot of books. Try Sword of the Lord and Tyndale publishers and your internet search engine as well as Baptist church web-sites.
[ September 13, 2002, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: WisdomSeeker ]
Here are a few books on baptist history.
Lessons on the New Testament Church- by Norman Wells.
Trail of Blood. By J.M. Carroll
You can also search the web on the challenge press. This is a book ministry of A local church in Pennsylvania. The Pastor is Doug Hammett.
Lessons on the New Testament Church- by Norman Wells.
Trail of Blood. By J.M. Carroll
You can also search the web on the challenge press. This is a book ministry of A local church in Pennsylvania. The Pastor is Doug Hammett.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
Kiffin,
I will now quote you one of the original sources produced by John T. Christian, who has been repeatedly and falsely accused of resting his history on secondary sources by men who are obviously ignorant of his writings. I quote from Christian's prefatory remarks to the quote along with the quote itself:
"The word Baptists was used by a high official of the English government in the earlier days of the reign of Queen Elizabeth. The official was Sir William Cecil, afterwards Lord Burleigh, then the Secretary of State and especial adviser of the Queen. The date is March 10 1569.....Secretary Cecil says:
The next imperfections are here at home, which be these: The state of religion many ways weakened by boldness to the true service of God; by increase of the number and courage of the BAPTISTS [emphasis added], and the deriders of religion; and lastly by the increase of numbers of irreligious and Epicures (A Collection of State Papers relating to the Reign Of Elizabeth. Transcribed from original Letters and other authentic Memorials, left by William Cecil, Lord Burleigh, and now remaining at Hartfield House, in the Library of the Right Honorable the Present Earl of Saulsbury by Samuel Haynes, M.A., London, 1740. I. 585, 586)."
This can be found in Christian's "History of the Baptists" volume one, page 205 and 206.
Thus, one of the highest officers in the English government testifies that Baptists already existed and were increasing in England in 1569. Since you have flatly asserted there were no Baptists before 1609, you have proven yourself an incredible witness as to when the Baptists originated.
Mark Osgatharp
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
Doug Stevens,
Here is a link to a web-site that contains some histories that date the Baptists from the time of Christ - not by name, but by doctrine and succession.
http://www.reformedreader.org/history/list.htm
Mark Osgatharp
[Bro. Mark, I edited the post to make the link work by clicking it, rlv]
[ September 13, 2002, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
Here is a link to a web-site that contains some histories that date the Baptists from the time of Christ - not by name, but by doctrine and succession.
http://www.reformedreader.org/history/list.htm
Mark Osgatharp
[Bro. Mark, I edited the post to make the link work by clicking it, rlv]
[ September 13, 2002, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
Bro. RLVaughn, it is good to be back and posting.
I love to discuss scripture. I have not had a convenient access to the inter-net. I have also been very busy, working with my dad and brothers in Miss. Ark. Tenn. with Eaton and Sons const. They are still doing that, currently I am going back to finish a Bachelor's Degree in Soc. Studies and History, seeking a Sec. Ed. Cert. and an ESL Endorsment. I just rejoined WKU in Bowling Green, KY this fall term and this has kept me busy as well. I am still actively serving the Lord, preaching weekly from WLOC am 1150 in Horse Cave KY and seeking to preach the Gospel whereever the Lord will open the door of opportunity and supply the message and ability. Our youngest son, the middle of two boys and a girl was saved this past June after being moved upon by the Holy Spirit during prayer meeting, he felt no satisfaction, we closed services after some time in prayer, and bible study and went to our homes, where Tyler, our son, continued and ourselves with him, to seek a release from his burden. He received that release and revelation on Saturday night in his bed after we had turned in for the night. Praise God, also for our oldest son has seemed to acquired the desire for salvation, his personal bible study and questions have increased over the past several weeks. We are praying and waiting for the promised blessing from God.
I am learning the Spanish language, perhaps 12 yrs. too late, but with the healthily growing Hispanic population in our area I hope the Lord will expand my ministry among this group, pray for this. I still feel the calling into foreign missions, but am obviously in preparation.
Otherwise, we are just taking one day at a time and praying for more grace and light to enable the preaching of the word, in humility, urgency, love and prayerfully in the faith that His word shall not return unto Him void, but shall accomplish that to which He has sent it.
I am also trying to encourage churches I visit to investigate sound Baptist Missions Boards and to realize the scriptural responsibility of the church to support such efforts, to prepare, ordain and send laborers into these fields whereever they are personally called. Pray for that since 9/11 not a few are wary of going abroad, understandably of course, but the necessity of it, and the commission has not changed, neither the God who is able to open hearts and regenerate those who would otherwise seek to harm us. Pray for all our missionaries, all the churches that support such work, and for the increase of the work.
Forgive me for such length. I would like to call your attention to a book I have recently found and been reading, which many of you no doubt are ahead of me on.
Three Witnesses for the Baptists
This is a work authored by Bro. Curtis Pugh of Carcross, Yukon Territory, Canada and Published by The Historic Baptist P.O. Box 741 Bloomfield, New Mexico 87413.
It is written for all interested in increasing their knowledge of Baptist heritage and history, and I believe the author states in his intro. it is written with the member, rather than the pastor in mind, while the pastor is helped by the work, the readability of the work is very good, and the information, as I have found thus far is sound.
This work can also be found on-line, though I do not have a particular url or site, you can type in the title of the book in your browser and will finally locate it, (this is how I got my copy).
God Bless all in your walk and service to Him.
Brother Dallas Eaton
Glasgow, KY
I love to discuss scripture. I have not had a convenient access to the inter-net. I have also been very busy, working with my dad and brothers in Miss. Ark. Tenn. with Eaton and Sons const. They are still doing that, currently I am going back to finish a Bachelor's Degree in Soc. Studies and History, seeking a Sec. Ed. Cert. and an ESL Endorsment. I just rejoined WKU in Bowling Green, KY this fall term and this has kept me busy as well. I am still actively serving the Lord, preaching weekly from WLOC am 1150 in Horse Cave KY and seeking to preach the Gospel whereever the Lord will open the door of opportunity and supply the message and ability. Our youngest son, the middle of two boys and a girl was saved this past June after being moved upon by the Holy Spirit during prayer meeting, he felt no satisfaction, we closed services after some time in prayer, and bible study and went to our homes, where Tyler, our son, continued and ourselves with him, to seek a release from his burden. He received that release and revelation on Saturday night in his bed after we had turned in for the night. Praise God, also for our oldest son has seemed to acquired the desire for salvation, his personal bible study and questions have increased over the past several weeks. We are praying and waiting for the promised blessing from God.
I am learning the Spanish language, perhaps 12 yrs. too late, but with the healthily growing Hispanic population in our area I hope the Lord will expand my ministry among this group, pray for this. I still feel the calling into foreign missions, but am obviously in preparation.
Otherwise, we are just taking one day at a time and praying for more grace and light to enable the preaching of the word, in humility, urgency, love and prayerfully in the faith that His word shall not return unto Him void, but shall accomplish that to which He has sent it.
I am also trying to encourage churches I visit to investigate sound Baptist Missions Boards and to realize the scriptural responsibility of the church to support such efforts, to prepare, ordain and send laborers into these fields whereever they are personally called. Pray for that since 9/11 not a few are wary of going abroad, understandably of course, but the necessity of it, and the commission has not changed, neither the God who is able to open hearts and regenerate those who would otherwise seek to harm us. Pray for all our missionaries, all the churches that support such work, and for the increase of the work.
Forgive me for such length. I would like to call your attention to a book I have recently found and been reading, which many of you no doubt are ahead of me on.
Three Witnesses for the Baptists
This is a work authored by Bro. Curtis Pugh of Carcross, Yukon Territory, Canada and Published by The Historic Baptist P.O. Box 741 Bloomfield, New Mexico 87413.
It is written for all interested in increasing their knowledge of Baptist heritage and history, and I believe the author states in his intro. it is written with the member, rather than the pastor in mind, while the pastor is helped by the work, the readability of the work is very good, and the information, as I have found thus far is sound.
This work can also be found on-line, though I do not have a particular url or site, you can type in the title of the book in your browser and will finally locate it, (this is how I got my copy).
God Bless all in your walk and service to Him.
Brother Dallas Eaton
Glasgow, KY
Thank you very much for the welcome, brother!
As per the topic - baptistic practices (namely immersion) did exist long prior to 1609 (it existed in the NT), but the people known as "Baptists" did not exist until then. However, to argue that Baptists go all the way back to the NT is incorrect.
Rev. G
As per the topic - baptistic practices (namely immersion) did exist long prior to 1609 (it existed in the NT), but the people known as "Baptists" did not exist until then. However, to argue that Baptists go all the way back to the NT is incorrect.
Rev. G
All about Grace
New Member
It's funny how those who want to trace Baptist history to the banks of the Jordan are often the same type Baptist who would have nothing to do with certain groups in the retro-link if those groups were around today.
I have often teased my more Landmarkish friends that the trail of blood gets very thin and watery in certain portions of their history
Have there been baptistic groups since the NT? Yes
Have there been Baptists since the NT? Well it is according to whether or not your definition of a Baptist differs from question #1.
I have often teased my more Landmarkish friends that the trail of blood gets very thin and watery in certain portions of their history
Have there been baptistic groups since the NT? Yes
Have there been Baptists since the NT? Well it is according to whether or not your definition of a Baptist differs from question #1.
If the baptist line has ever been broken... Then you can say that the baptist is a tradition of men. It has to go back to John The Baptist unbroken for the baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be true. The baptizo by immersion only has to be in an unbroken line and to those who held to that manner of baptism. They may have gone by many names but the baptism was the same instituted by John The Baptist. Those who disagree are free to check Church History which declares the same. Feel free to check more into this forum and hear from your ancestors!... Brother Glen
Brandon Stewart
New Member
Some interesting books on Baptist history that I have discovered, and am currently reading are:
The Trail of Blood (This is kind of hard to find, send me an e-mail and I will give you specific info on how to find it, this goes for anyone interested.)
The Baptist Story: Sermons on The Trail of Blood (Another hard to find one, e-mail me and I will give you specifics to locate)
In Jesus,
Brandon Stewart
chaser830@baptistmail.com
http://www.bornofspiritministries.org
I have been taught that Landmarkists trace their history through groups that they themselves would consider heretical. I have not really researched this in depth and am interested.
1. Have you guys researched these ancient sects to determine if they are heretical?
2. Specifically, what doctrines are require to be considered "baptist" in this context?
Thanks,
Charlie
1. Have you guys researched these ancient sects to determine if they are heretical?
2. Specifically, what doctrines are require to be considered "baptist" in this context?
Thanks,
Charlie
Daniel Dunivan
New Member
No, Baptists originate out of English separatism in the early 17the century. You can make theological claims to perpetuity (many here do), but the scientific study of history does not bear this to be true. What is theology, if it isn't grounded in history? Hope, not truth.