Is Jesus Going to be Demoted from His Heavenly Throne to a Throne here on Earth? No, There Will Be No Earthly Throne of Jesus.

[Alan Dale Gross]

Yes, the Lord Jesus will sit on David’s Throne on earth for 1000 years but no, will NOT be demoted.

Why does the only passage in The Bible that describes "a thousand years",

1.) not mention David's Throne,

2.) not mention Jesus being on Earth,

3.) say "the souls of those beheaded" were those who were reigning with Jesus "a thousand years"?

4.) say that those "souls of those beheaded", had experienced the First Resurrection?, in that they had been saved on Earth and later passed away and were those who were now in Heaven?

5.) constrain our understanding of the "souls of those beheaded", being read literally, to indicate they are saved souls in Heaven,

6.) as well as having Jesus on His Throne constrain us to be read literally as describing Him in Heaven, and not Earth, for "a thousand years",

7.) with those two literal Realities then compelling us to take "a thousand years" like God's Word used the figurative expression when He Promised His people, in Deuteronomy 7:9; "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;” like most every other number in the book of Revelation is to be taken symbolically, in exactly the same symbolic way that, "a thousand" is to be taken as a figurative expression when it was used by God in The Old Testament when He said there He would bless them unto "a thousand generations".

With our making a guess of "a generation" being 35 years?, to 45 years, maybe, God would have been saying that He was going to bless His natural people, during "a thousand generations", for 35,000 years, to 45,000 years, otherwise.

Are you prepared to reset the tent pegs of your End Times talk, to have this Earth go on unchanged for 35 to 45 thousand years, before Jesus Returns?

 

[MrW]

You have your facts wrong.

Jesus was not a descendant of Joseph by birth, but by adoption. God fixed that which man destroyed.

"the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Nothing about Jesus seeking the throne through paternal descent via Joseph.

Mary was not a descendant of Solomon, who was of the kingly line, but Nathan. Two totally different genealogies from David. Jesus was not a biological descendant of Johoiachin through Mary. They were cousins and distant relatives. Jesus had no claim to the throne through biological descent through Solomon, nor Johoiachin.

Joseph was not the biological father, but he was told to name the child, and raise him as his own son, and not make a public example of Mary, who would have been condemned as a harlot, having a child, out of wedlock. Did your point need Joseph to be the biological father, so Jesus would have been a direct descendant? Obviously Joseph was a carpenter, and had no desire to be considered royalty, which kept your prophesy in tact.

Do you think the Holy Spirit provided the genealogical records (both of them), or did Matthew and Luke have to go look them up in the Temple?

"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

So did Luke or Matthew get confused about who was Joseph's father? Do you think that Heli was actually the father of Mary, and by marriage Joseph was considered his son in law?

Luke gives us Mary's genealogy and simply inserted Joseph instead of Mary, being the legal way to do it:

"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the husband of Mary which was the daughter of Heli,"

Mary was the daughter of Heli, but after marriage, Joseph would be considered the son of Heli legally.

Matthew only goes back to Abraham and David. Luke traces the genealogy back to Adam and declares Adam the son of God, which is true. Although Adam was just one son of God out of many. Matthew was confirming to his Hebrew audience that Jesus was both from Abraham and David:

"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."

Luke was showing us the legal direct biological descent all the way to Jesus being the son of Adam, the son of God. Obviously Adam was not the biological son of God, but was created in God's image along with many sons of God.

The Lord Jesus had physical right to the throne through Mary’s lineage and the legal right to the throne through Joseph’s lineage.

 

[37818]

Revelation 21:1, And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. . . .

 

[Dave G]

Yes, there will be an earthly throne that the Lord Jesus will sit on, and He will rule from Jerusalem with a rod of iron over His enemies that are made His footstool.
He will be King over all the earth when He comes again.

God did not lie when He revealed these facts through David in the Psalms, and Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Zechariah to name a few.

 

[JesusFan]

There Will Be No Earthly Throne of Jesus.​

— The Three Key “Throne” Prophecies.​

Is Jesus going to be demoted from His Heavenly Throne to a Throne here on Earth?

It cannot happen.

There are three Prophetic statements that Jesus Christ would break
if He were to Reign on David’s throne in Earthly Jerusalem.

1. Christ Will Be a Priest on His Throne.​

The Messiah was going to be both a King and a Priest on this Throne, in Prophecy, not a King only.

There are two Prophecies that make this fact clear.

First, let us look at those two Prophecies,
then we will see how they preclude a Reign of Christ on an Earthly throne.

Psalms 110:4;

"Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedec."

Melchisedec was king of Salem and a priest of God (Genesis 14:18).

When the Psalmist likens the Messiah to Melchizedec
he is saying that Messiah will be both King and Priest.

Zechariah 6:12-13;

"He Will be a, Priest on His Throne."

At the time this was spoken the king was Zerubbabel and the priest was Joshua.

In all of Israel’s history, the offices of king and priest were held by different persons.

But the Branch (the Messiah) would fill both Offices.

He would be a Priest on His Throne. He would be both Priest and King.

The Hebrew writer has much to say about this matter of Christ being, after the order of Melchisedec, both a King and Priest in Hebrews chapters 5 to 8.

His conclusion is that "if Christ were on Earth He would not be a Priest" (Hebrews 8:4).

The reason for this conclusion is very simple.

Christ was of the wrong tribe to be a Priest on Earth!

He was of the tribe of Judah. To be a Priest on Earth He would have to be of the tribe of Levi.

Jesus was not a Levite, so He could not be a Priest an Earth.

If Christ could not be a Priest an Earth, yet had to be a Priest on His Throne,
it follows that Jesus' Throne could not be on Earth.

It’s simple matters like this that the premillennialist overlooks.

But now let me show you another simple fact that again makes impossible an Earthly Throne of Christ .

2. Christ is Jehoiachin’s Descendant.​

There is a Prophecy concerning the throne of David which addresses king Jehoiachin, the second to last king to sit on David’s throne.

Jeremiah 22:28-30;

"No man of his descendants will prosper sitting an the throne of David or ruling again in Judah"

Christ is a descendant of Jehoiachin
and no descendant of Jehoiachin can prosper on David's throne in Jerusalem.

King Jehoiachin (also called Jeconiah and Coniah) was the last king to sit on David’s throne in Jerusalem.

He was one of the wicked kings and so the Lord says that none of his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David or ruling again in Judah.

Jehoiachin was subsequently carried off with his people into captivity by the Babylonians. They put his uncle Zedekiah on the throne, prior to their destroying Jerusalem.

When the remnant of Judah returned to Jerusalem after the 70 year exile, Jehoiachin’s grandson Zerubbabel led Judah. However, Zerubbabel did not restore David’s throne or sit on it. He was not in any sense a king. He is called "governor of Judah" (Haggai 2:2).

Now Jesus was a descendant of Jehoiachin (Jeconiah) through Shealtiel and Zerubbabel .

You can see that fact in his genealogy in Matthew 1:12 or Luke 3:27.

Do you see the significance? Jesus is a descendant of Jehoiachin (also called Jeconiah or Coniah).

No descendant of that man could prosper on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

So if Jesus Reigns on David’s throne in Jerusalem He cannot prosper.

It is so written in Jeremiah, and the scripture cannot be broken.

The only way that Jesus can sit on David’s throne and prosper
is to Reign on that throne in Heaven, and that’s exactly what He is doing right now.

3. Christ Reigns When David Sleeps.​

Another Prophecy says that Christ is to Reign when David is asleep with his fathers.

2 Samuel 7:12-16

"When... you lie down with your fathers, I Will Raise Up your descendant after you...
I Will establish the Throne of His Kingdom Forever".

This shows that Christ would Reign while David was asleep with his fathers. In the supposed "Millennium" (say the premillennialists) David is not going to be dead, but alive and well as one of the Resurrected Old Testament saints.

If Christ is to Reign while David is dead, and David will not be dead in the presumed "Millennial Kingdom, on Earth", then it stands to reason that Christ will not Reign in the "Millennial Kingdom, on Earth".

Jesus' Reign is in Heaven.

Jesus is indirectly ruling from heaven, as God is allowing and permitting things that he never will once enthroned on His early rein kingdom

 

[Jope]

Why does the only passage in The Bible that describes "a thousand years",

Greetings again Alan.

You are in denial. Revelation 20 isn't the only passage in the Bible that describes a thousand years. Early premillennialists (eg Justin Martyr) related the thousand year perspective of the LORD being one day (Psalm 90; 2 Peter), to the premillennial text of Revelation 20.

Other premillennialists (John G. Bellett; etc.) have likewise linked the pentateuch's description of the Theocratic Kingdom to "the days of heaven upon earth" (Deut. 11:21).

Also, I bumped into an interesting essay by G K Beale, an Amillennialist. Here is the first paragraph of the essay, which can be found by clicking on the hyperlink (it is a pdf document):

"Isaiah 65:20 says: “No longer will there be from there an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; for the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed.”1 This essay had its stimulus in a Westminster Theological Seminary panel discussion on eschatology at the Gospel Coalition conference in Orlando, FL in the spring of 2015. At the conclusion of the panel dialogue, there was an extended time for questions from the audience. One of the questions was about how Isa 65:20 could fit into a classic amillennial view, which typically holds that Isa 65:17–25 depicts the eternal new heavens and earth. As I recollect, the questioner referred to John Piper who had spoken earlier at the conference in support of premillennialism and had said that Isa 65:20 referred to the temporary millennial period which would eventually pass away. Among his reasons for this was that verse 20 so clearly affirmed that there would be sin and death in the future age, so that this age could not be referring to the eternal state."

Also, Ecclesiastes 6:6 mentions living a thousand years, and the antediluvian peoples almost lived to be one thousand (eg Methusaleh), which premillennialists have referenced as a fulfillment of the Pentateuch (Mt. 5:17-18; Acts 3:21).

1.) not mention David's Throne,

I have already responded to this, but you have conveniently blinded yourself to the rebuttle.

2.) not mention Jesus being on Earth,

See my response to your #1 above. Also, others have given a rebuttle to this, but you would rather blind yourself to other's responses and spam your posts.

Proverbs 18:13 ASV
He that giveth answer before he heareth, It is folly and shame unto him.

3.) say "the souls of those beheaded" were those who were reigning with Jesus "a thousand years"?

An even better question is, why you believe this has already been fulfilled. (Again, I have given you this question before).

4.) say that those "souls of those beheaded", had experienced the First Resurrection?, in that they had been saved on Earth and later passed away and were those who were now in Heaven?

5.) constrain our understanding of the "souls of those beheaded", being read literally, to indicate they are saved souls in Heaven,

6.) as well as having Jesus on His Throne constrain us to be read literally as describing Him in Heaven, and not Earth, for "a thousand years",

7.) with those two literal Realities then compelling us to take "a thousand years" like God's Word used the figurative expression when He Promised His people, in Deuteronomy 7:9; "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;” like most every other number in the book of Revelation is to be taken symbolically, in exactly the same symbolic way that, "a thousand" is to be taken as a figurative expression when it was used by God in The Old Testament when He said there He would bless them unto "a thousand generations".

Why have you blinded yourself to the option of this text (Dt. 7:9) being taken literally? "A thousand generations" can certainly exist or be fulfilled in an eternal kingdom.

Are you prepared to reset the tent pegs of your End Times talk, to have this Earth go on unchanged for 35 to 45 thousand years, before Jesus Returns?

As usual, bizarre straw man fallacies. Why haven't you given us the content I asked for when you made this accusation against premillennialists before? Premillennialists do not believe in a break or discontinuation from the beginning of the millennium onto eternity. Please stop repeating your straw man fallacies and learn how to engage in rational, coherent discussion.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

once enthroned on His early rein kingdom

I hope you are not coming up with Revelation 20:1-6, in order to think that Jesus will be Enthroned on Earth, or Reign with saints on Earth, for "a thousand years".

Where Jesus now lives and where He is Enthroned Reigning with the souls of them beheaded, etc., is in Heaven, for "a thousand years".

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

God did not lie when He revealed these facts

Did the God​

of Old Testament​

Kingdom Prophecy Lie?​

Did the God of Old Testament Kingdom Prophecy Lie? – Come Let Us Reason

Note: This essay is an excerpt from my book, The High King of Heaven: Discovering the Master Keys to the Great End Time Debate. In essence, the book is a defense of amillennial eschatology. According to amillennarians, when God gave prophecies of a coming Kingdom to his OT saints, he used...

www.clr4u.org

"If indeed God spoke figuratively in OTKP, (Old Testament Kingdom Prophecy), if indeed he covenantally conditioned it, if indeed he placed a veil of (Mosaic) types and shadows over the truth, then is it not the case that God, in effect, lied to his OT people, and knowingly deceived them?

"For surely he knew that they would interpret these prophecies literally, just as they did the simple OT prophecies that had been fulfilled before their eyes in ages past.

"While at first glance this objection may seem weighty, there are at least four good reasons why it cannot stand.

"First, in speaking as he did through the OT prophets, God told the absolute truth. Not one word of all the good words found in OTKP has fallen—or will fall—to the ground (Joshua 23:14).

"True, in them God did not say everything he meant, for much was hidden away under type and shadow. Nevertheless, he certainly meant everything he said: He intended to convey important truths, and he intended those truths to have a desired effect. For this very reason, the Spirit of Truth honored his own words, using them to give light, strength, and hope to God’s OT elect.

"Therefore, in giving OTKP, God did not lie."

"Secondly, even in OTKP itself, God gave many hints to the effect that his words about the coming Kingdom had a figurative, spiritual meaning. Apparent contradictions, patently symbolic texts, and talk of a completely new covenant all warned against a too literal approach to OTKP.

"Thirdly, God also repeatedly intimated to his OT people that they would not fully understand his redemptive purpose and plan until the Last Days, until the days of the Kingdom itself..."

"This brings us to our fourth and final point, namely, that no sooner did God begin to fulfill OTKP, than he also supplied the keys by which anyone who wished to could correctly interpret them.

"As we have seen, even before the coming of the Kingdom, Jesus himself revealed the mysteries of the Kingdom to his disciples (Matthew 13:1ff).

"After the Day of Pentecost, when the first stage of the Kingdom began, he gave his holy apostles and prophets still more light—indeed, definitive light—on the true nature of the Kingdom and the proper interpretation of OTKP, light that was then available to honest Jewish seekers, and that is now available to all nations in the pages of the NT.

"If, then, in OT times, there was occasion for a certain amount of confusion—as well as caution, patience, and trust—regarding the true meaning of OTKP, in NT times that occasion is completely removed..."

"Henceforth, to all who are willing to receive it, Christ offers the Rosetta Stone: the New Covenant Hermeneutic, by which they can easily translate the mysterious tropes of OTKP into glorious NT truth."

 

[JesusFan]

Greetings again Alan.

You are in denial. Revelation 20 isn't the only passage in the Bible that describes a thousand years. Early premillennialists (eg Justin Martyr) related the thousand year perspective of the LORD being one day (Psalm 90; 2 Peter), to the premillennial text of Revelation 20.

Other premillennialists (John G. Bellett; etc.) have likewise linked the pentateuch's description of the Theocratic Kingdom to "the days of heaven upon earth" (Deut. 11:21).

Also, I bumped into an interesting essay by G K Beale, an Amillennialist. Here is the first paragraph of the essay, which can be found by clicking on the hyperlink (it is a pdf document):

"Isaiah 65:20 says: “No longer will there be from there an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; for the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed.”1 This essay had its stimulus in a Westminster Theological Seminary panel discussion on eschatology at the Gospel Coalition conference in Orlando, FL in the spring of 2015. At the conclusion of the panel dialogue, there was an extended time for questions from the audience. One of the questions was about how Isa 65:20 could fit into a classic amillennial view, which typically holds that Isa 65:17–25 depicts the eternal new heavens and earth. As I recollect, the questioner referred to John Piper who had spoken earlier at the conference in support of premillennialism and had said that Isa 65:20 referred to the temporary millennial period which would eventually pass away. Among his reasons for this was that verse 20 so clearly affirmed that there would be sin and death in the future age, so that this age could not be referring to the eternal state."

Also, Ecclesiastes 6:6 mentions living a thousand years, and the antediluvian peoples almost lived to be one thousand (eg Methusaleh), which premillennialists have referenced as a fulfillment of the Pentateuch (Mt. 5:17-18; Acts 3:21).



I have already responded to this, but you have conveniently blinded yourself to the rebuttle.



See my response to your #1 above. Also, others have given a rebuttle to this, but you would rather blind yourself to other's responses and spam your posts.

Proverbs 18:13 ASV
He that giveth answer before he heareth, It is folly and shame unto him.



An even better question is, why you believe this has already been fulfilled. (Again, I have given you this question before).



Why have you blinded yourself to the option of this text (Dt. 7:9) being taken literally? "A thousand generations" can certainly exist or be fulfilled in an eternal kingdom.



As usual, bizarre straw man fallacies. Why haven't you given us the content I asked for when you made this accusation against premillennialists before? Premillennialists do not believe in a break or discontinuation from the beginning of the millennium onto eternity. Please stop repeating your straw man fallacies and learn how to engage in rational, coherent discussion.

The 1000 year reigning is not just help by pre trib premills, as also held by Covenant theology holders who are historical premill like myself

 

[JesusFan]

I hope you are not coming up with Revelation 20:1-6, in order to think that Jesus will be Enthroned on Earth, or Reign with saints on Earth, for "a thousand years".

Where Jesus now lives and where He is Enthroned Reigning with the souls of them beheaded, etc., is in Heaven, for "a thousand years".

Not directly ruling and reigning until after second coming and physical resurrection of all of the redeemed

 

[Jope]

The 1000 year reigning is not just help by pre trib premills, as also held by Covenant theology holders who are historical premill like myself

Hello. Can you quote the specific sentence that you are responding to? I tried looking back through my post and couldn't find how this interacts. Nice to meet you though

 

[Jope]

Is Jesus going to be demoted from His Heavenly Throne to a Throne here on Earth?

You're not looking at the situation the right way. Was Jesus' birth by the virgin and birth in a humble manger, and raising in insignificant Nazareth, also a "demotion"?

 

[Jope]

There Will Be No Earthly Throne of Jesus.​

— The Three Key “Throne” Prophecies.​

Is Jesus going to be demoted from His Heavenly Throne to a Throne here on Earth?

It cannot happen.

Do you know what gnosticism is?

 

[percho]

1 Cor 15:21,22 YLT state - for since through man, the death, also through man, a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

25,26 state - for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- death;

Man, humans have been dying in Adam, since the first man human Adam and continue to do so to this date 12/22/24.
Of all of man to date how many have died and have been raised again out of the dead, to die no more, have died no more to return to corruption?

How many have been raised out of the dead in the manner the Christ was raised? Yet will it take place again? When?

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign [vi Fut Act 1 Pl] on the earth. When?

Christ reigns until the last enemy, death, is done away and then Christ does something with the kingdom. What does Christ do with the kingdom after - the end - that is after the end of death?

Verse 23 then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign [kingdom] to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --

Come is no where to be found in verse 23.

Paul is giving an order of being made alive out of the dead.

First the Christ about 2000 years ago.
Second those who are Christ's in his presence, at his coming to rule with him.
That rule is called the day of the Lord. That day is one thousand years. At the end of that day the rest of the dead will be made alive out of the dead.

The kingdom will be handed up [whatever that means] to God even the Father.

 

[JD731]

The Jews during the days of the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ did not challenge his claim of being the Messiah and the fulfillment of the prophetic King of Israel based on the genealogical records like the modern day naysayers are doing because they knew that would have been senseless. All Israel knew and expected of the Messiah was to be their king and the nation to take it's place as the head nation on earth. That is what the OT prophets taught would happen when the Messiah appeared.

The prophecies they did not major on were those that said he would first die for their sins and be resurrected from the dead and be glorified and come again to take his seat of government. This is the reason no one believed it when he revealed that he was going to Jerusalem to be killed and arise from the dead immediately after he showed his disciple the kingdom of heaven on the mount of transfiguration. One must be born again to see (perceive) this kingdom (a good reason for those who cannot see this kingdom examine their standing with God) and to enter in to it. This, of course, will of necessity have him sacrifice himself for their sins and rise from the dead first before the kingdom, unless the naysayers also have another way to be born again.

Mt 16:21 ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

The reaction from his 3 1/2 years fellow preachers, who preached what Jesus preached;

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mr 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain (of transfiguration), he charged them (his disciples) that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

30 And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee (on the way to Jerusalem to keep the Passover); and he would not that any man should know it. 31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. 32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Lu 9:43 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, 44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. 45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Joh 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, 7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. 8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. 9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.

There are many more scriptures that indicates these disciples were not born again, although justified believers, and how could they be, the Spirit was not yet given. But the kingdom gospel they and Jesus had been preaching was not about being born again nor was it about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Their preaching was to convince Israel that Jesus was both the promised Messiah of Israel and the Son of God and all who believed this gospel would be given eternal life and it was later revealed that this life would be given after Jesus died for their sins and rose again and ascended to heaven and sent down his Spirit, who is his life, to indwell the nation by indwelling each citizen through faith in Jesus Christ, at which time he would come back to rule and reign over the earth through them.

Jesus Christ has not come back to rule because the nation through her rulers rejected his Spirit and only a small remnant believed in him. Because of this God is building his church through the gentiles and his church is not a political entity. It is a familial entity and there is a marriage when the church is complete. Israel was dead for 2 days with the promise she will be raised very early on the third day and be glorified in the same way as Jesus Christ, by the indwelling Spirit, and will be the chief nation over all the earth.

Ho 6:1 ¶ Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

The latter rain is the second pouring out of his Spirit on this people.

 

[percho]

The Jews during the days of the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ did not challenge his claim of being the Messiah and the fulfillment of the prophetic King of Israel based on the genealogical records like the modern day naysayers are doing because they knew that would have been senseless. All Israel knew and expected of the Messiah was to be their king and the nation to take it's place as the head nation on earth. That is what the OT prophets taught would happen when the Messiah appeared.

The prophecies they did not major on were those that said he would first die for their sins and be resurrected from the dead and be glorified and come again to take his seat of government. This is the reason no one believed it when he revealed that he was going to Jerusalem to be killed and arise from the dead immediately after he showed his disciple the kingdom of heaven on the mount of transfiguration. One must be born again to see (perceive) this kingdom (a good reason for those who cannot see this kingdom examine their standing with God) and to enter in to it. This, of course, will of necessity have him sacrifice himself for their sins and rise from the dead first before the kingdom, unless the naysayers also have another way to be born again.

Mt 16:21 ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

The reaction from his 3 1/2 years fellow preachers, who preached what Jesus preached;

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mr 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain (of transfiguration), he charged them (his disciples) that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

30 And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee (on the way to Jerusalem to keep the Passover); and he would not that any man should know it. 31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. 32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Lu 9:43 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, 44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. 45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Joh 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, 7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. 8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. 9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.

There are many more scriptures that indicates these disciples were not born again, although justified believers, and how could they be, the Spirit was not yet given. But the kingdom gospel they and Jesus had been preaching was not about being born again nor was it about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Their preaching was to convince Israel that Jesus was both the promised Messiah of Israel and the Son of God and all who believed this gospel would be given eternal life and it was later revealed that this life would be given after Jesus died for their sins and rose again and ascended to heaven and sent down his Spirit, who is his life, to indwell the nation by indwelling each citizen through faith in Jesus Christ, at which time he would come back to rule and reign over the earth through them.

Jesus Christ has not come back to rule because the nation through her rulers rejected his Spirit and only a small remnant believed in him. Because of this God is building his church through the gentiles and his church is not a political entity. It is a familial entity and there is a marriage when the church is complete. Israel was dead for 2 days with the promise she will be raised very early on the third day and be glorified in the same way as Jesus Christ, by the indwelling Spirit, and will be the chief nation over all the earth.

Ho 6:1 ¶ Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

The latter rain is the second pouring out of his Spirit on this people.

Does the church give birth to the nation?

 

[Godisgracious1031]

Jesus is King of everyone.

 

[JD731]

Does the church give birth to the nation?

Briefly, Israel was a nation, virgin born of Egypt, and God was his Father. Egypt was a type of the world. God sees Israel as a corporate entity and answers as to why Jesus did not return as King soon after his resurrection from the dead. It is not that God at one time saw Israel as a corporate entity, but that he sees, present and future tense, Israel as a corporate entity. He is a man in this sense. He is born as Jesus Christ was born a man, of the flesh. He must be born again of the Spirit of God to be glorified in the presence of God.

Proof:

21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

You must ask yourself at this point if you actually have the capacity to receive these words at face value. Do you believe them, and if not, why not?

Now Israel took on the sins of the nations, engaging in worse sins than any of them and God has in his wisdom set a time in which he will judge her like no other nation has ever been judged or will ever be judged and will purge her of all sins and all sinners at that time and will perfect her by that judgement. This is pre-figured by Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary where he died and paid the price of all sinners with the most cruel death ever experienced by any man.

Skipping over more valuable information because of a lack of time and space now, Israel rejected her savior, Jesus Christ when he came to save her from her sins and she refused him and put him to death. This is a separation of Jesus Christ, who is God, from Israel, and this is the Bible definition of death. Time stops for dead people and the carcass must have a place of burial. For this nation, it was a burial in the dispersion from her land into the other nations of the world where she is likened as no people and thus her covenant promises of old are suspended because how could God keep covenant relations with a dead and buried nation? The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ also prefigures the death, burial, and resurrection of God's first born son, Israel. The time lines are exactly the same.

History, if you will accept it will show that Israel was a nation when Jesus Christ came into the world through them and was a part of them, being a Jew. Israel was reckoned dead by God in Matthew 12 and later Jesus will say these words about them.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The word is aion = age and means the age in which they were in presently where the operative principle of divine dealing over them was the Mosaic Law. That world which was to come would be for that people the age of Promise where all the things concerning Jesus the Messiah was to be realized through him.

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Now, it is a fact that Israel died and was laid to rest among the nations of the world in 70 AD. It is a fact the the life of God, the Holy Ghost, was given to her during the first seven years after Jesus rose from the dead, and she rejected her national new birth through the resurrected Christ and God made a transition of his actions that amounts to grace for Israel and for all mankind as he began to work out the purpose of this age through the inclusion of gentiles.

Israel, according to our history books backs up the death, burial, and resurrection of the nation Israel. She was gone from her land for two thousand years and God says for him a thousand years equals a day. Time will begin again for this people when God recognizes her as a nation. I personally do not know if God recognizes her as a nation at the same time that the world says she became a nation in the year 1948 with her charter. Time will tell. But I know this, she will be resurrected according to God and will be purged and purified and born again by the Spirit very early on the third day after the pattern of Jesus Christ.

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Here is something one can take to the bank. If Israel is not restored and saved, every one of them left alive after the purging, and thus, as the son of God, born again, filled with the Spirit, and in their land with Jesus Christ their King, then the whole thing is a myth and none of us can expect to saved from our sins.

The prophecies of Jesus Christ the son of God and the nation of Israel, the son of God are parallels in the scriptures.

I have not proven everything in this post but it should make a person appreciate the wisdom of God and the glories of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, whom I love.