Is John McCarthur a Calvinist?

[Bronconagurski]

No offense taken. This is something I would have argued for a while about before, but once is enough. I guess we just disagree. I just think that we tend to dissect the Bible word-for-word too much when, what is called for IMO is a holistic approach: here being Paul's context.

It is ironic that many who argue for a literal meaning of "all" here, in other places shy away from the same rubric. Case in point is Christ's saying that many will not die before they see Him coming into His kingdom with power.

I hear you, and I don't wish to be repetetive. That is why translation from Greek to English is not for the faint of heart. I have some beginning Greek primers, but wish I could read it proficiently. My heart's desire is to truly understand the interpretation of all texts the way God meant them, and I guess that is why I am like to see opposing views, and have a lot of time on my hands as I am going thru what I hope to be temporary disability. I still homeschool my teenage son and take care of a few portfolios during the day, but the scriptures take up the rest of my time since I can't leave the house for very long. I used to work nights as well. It has been interesting thus far to see differing opinons, because at church everyone pretty much believes the way I do, and it has been that way for my entire saved life. My biggest lesson thus far is not to take things personally. At first, I was doing that and came to the conclusion that I was being petty and unfair.

 

[webdog]

Since you are saying that "all men" is never qualified, I guess you are a universalist, then?

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.


BTW "mankind" from Acts 4 is nothing of the kind. It is just the plural word "men." "Mankind" is an interpretation of the word.

Since the first group in Romans 5:18 is connected to the second group ("as one...so one..."), and you believe the first group consists of all mankind...who should be accused of universalism here?

 

[Winman]

No offense taken. This is something I would have argued for a while about before, but once is enough. I guess we just disagree. I just think that we tend to dissect the Bible word-for-word too much when, what is called for IMO is a holistic approach: here being Paul's context.

It is ironic that many who argue for a literal meaning of "all" here, in other places shy away from the same rubric. Case in point is Christ's saying that many will not die before they see Him coming into His kingdom with power.

Baloney, Jesus did not say "many" he said "some"

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

All you have to do is keep reading. Immediately after Jesus said this, in all three books, Matthew, Mark, and Luke we are told that Jesus takes Peter, James, and John up on a mountain and is transfigured before them.

Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Notice verse 28 says, "about an eight days after these sayings" pointing back to where Jesus had said there are "some" here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.

So, we are shown immediately what Jesus was talking about, he was saying that Peter, James, and John would see him in his glory. This is called the "transfiguration".

Don't ignore the little words like "all", they hold GREAT meaning.

 

[psalms109:31]

Paul tells us to make peace with those around us.

Why, because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and we are messengers to them not only with words, but the way we live our life.

Paul is saying all men and they didn't believe him then either, that is why he said he isn't lying he is also a messenger in the world.

Ezekiel does tie in with what he is saying.

It is to believers to go out and tell because God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and we are His messengers of this. I am not lying to you either. The elect are those who come to the knowledge of the truth those who do not will die in their sins.

We can talk a good Paul, but try to live a good Paul

31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God — 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

 

[asterisktom]

Baloney, Jesus did not say "many" he said "some"

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Yes, I miswrote that. He said "some". I was confusing this with another quote I was typing elsewhere today. An easy mistake.

It changes nothing on my point. The "baloney" was uncalled for and childish.

OK, change the word to "some". You still have no answer. My point remains.

You say "all" always means "all", but now you are arguing that "some" does not mean "some". Because no one died in that short period.

So why did Christ say "some"?

Don't ignore the little words like "some", they hold GREAT meaning.

 

[Winman]

OK, change the word to "some". You still have no answer. My point remains.

What do you mean I have no answer? I showed the answer. In all three books, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, immediately after Jesus tells his disciples that there are some standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God we are told Jesus takes Peter, John, and James up into a mount and is transfigured before them. They see Jesus in his glory.

 

[asterisktom]

What do you mean I have no answer? I showed the answer. In all three books, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, immediately after Jesus tells his disciples that there are some standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God we are told Jesus takes Peter, John, and James up into a mount and is transfigured before them. They see Jesus in his glory.

You don't even understand the question then.

Yes, the transfiguration follows in all three accounts. It is certainly related. But it does not solve the problem of Christ saying "some" will not die.

You make a big deal about "all" always = "all".
You are strangely silent on the "some" = "some".

How many people died in the span of those few verses? None.

Yet Christ said "some". If He had meant to refer to the Transfiguration (which I don't believe He did) He would have said "none" will die. Or He wouldn't even have mentioned that.

The very fact that he said "some" implies that He was not thinking of an event a few days in the future.

BTW, I am not really writing this to Winman, since I know that he doesn't really respond to questions and points, but to anyone else who cares to answer this.

 

[Winman]

You don't even understand the question then.

Yes, the transfiguration follows in all three accounts. It is certainly related. But it does not solve the problem of Christ saying "some" will not die.

You make a big deal about "all" always = "all".
You are strangely silent on the "some" = "some".

How many people died in the span of those few verses? None.

Yet Christ said "some". If He had meant to refer to the Transfiguration (which I don't believe He did) He would have said "none" will die. Or He wouldn't even have mentioned that.

The very fact that he said "some" implies that He was not thinking of an event a few days in the future.

BTW, I am not really writing this to Winman, since I know that he doesn't really respond to questions and points, but to anyone else who cares to answer this.

Well, I believe Jesus WAS speaking of the transfiguration, and not all of the disciples saw it, only "some" which were Peter, James, and John.

Luke 9:28 connects what Jesus said to the transfiguration when it says "about an eight days after these sayings".

 

[Winman]

You don't even understand the question then.

Yes, the transfiguration follows in all three accounts. It is certainly related. But it does not solve the problem of Christ saying "some" will not die.

You make a big deal about "all" always = "all".
You are strangely silent on the "some" = "some".

How many people died in the span of those few verses? None.

Yet Christ said "some". If He had meant to refer to the Transfiguration (which I don't believe He did) He would have said "none" will die. Or He wouldn't even have mentioned that.

The very fact that he said "some" implies that He was not thinking of an event a few days in the future.

BTW, I am not really writing this to Winman, since I know that he doesn't really respond to questions and points, but to anyone else who cares to answer this.

Well, I believe Jesus WAS speaking of the transfiguration, and not all of the disciples saw it, only "some" which were Peter, James, and John.

Luke 9:28 connects what Jesus said to the transfiguration when it says "about an eight days after these sayings".

 

[asterisktom]

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

....

Don't ignore the little words like "all", they hold GREAT meaning.

Don't ignore the little phrases like "verily, verily", they hold GREAT meaning.

In every case in the Gospels where this phrase is used it is an elaboration and/or application of the verses just prior.

But I see you left those verses out.

Here is the whole context of Matt.16:
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 8:38-9:1
8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke 9:26-27
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. [/COLOR]

I can see why you left these explanatory verses out; they do not fit your explanation that this prophecy refers to the Transfiguration. (I am not saying that you consciously did this, just that you saw the previous verses as irrelevant.)

Consider carefully the words underlined. This coming is much more than that Transfiguration. It has the following elements:

1. Christ will be ashamed of the ones who were ashamed of Him.
Did that happen at the Transfiguration?

2. He will come in the glory of the Father and of the angels.
Did that happen at the Transfiguration?

3. He shall reward every man according to his work.
Did that happen at the Transfiguration?

No, no, and no.

 

[asterisktom]

Well, I believe Jesus WAS speaking of the transfiguration, and not all of the disciples saw it, only "some" which were Peter, James, and John.

Luke 9:28 connects what Jesus said to the transfiguration when it says "about an eight days after these sayings".

More obfuscation. The issue is not what the disciples saw or didn't see; or how many saw anything. The point is that not one of them died.

 

[Bronconagurski]

More obfuscation. The issue is not what the disciples saw or didn't see; or how many saw anything. The point is that not one of them died.

Ok, if it was talking about A.D. 70, then wasn't John the only one, not some, that lived to see that? Or are you thinking it means something different?

 

[asterisktom]

Ok, if it was talking about A.D. 70, then wasn't John the only one, not some, that lived to see that? Or are you thinking it means something different?

You are right that that is what I do believe. But I also believe that John had already died. (BTW, I place the writing of Rev. in the mid 60s. I have a post on this in the archives.)

The some that Christ was referring to was not the twelve only, but that much larger group that followed Him to the foot of the mountain.

 

[Winman]

Don't ignore the little phrases like "verily, verily", they hold GREAT meaning.

In every case in the Gospels where this phrase is used it is an elaboration and/or application of the verses just prior.

But I see you left those verses out.

Here is the whole context of Matt.16:
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 8:38-9:1
8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke 9:26-27
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. [/COLOR]

I can see why you left these explanatory verses out; they do not fit your explanation that this prophecy refers to the Transfiguration.

Consider carefully the words underlined. This coming is much more than that Transfiguration. It has the following elements:

1. Christ will be ashamed of the ones who were ashamed of Him.
Did that happen at the Transfiguration?
2. He will come in the glory of the Father and of the angels.
Did that happen at the Transfiguration?
3. He shall reward every man according to his work.
Did that happen at the Transfiguration?

No, no, and no.

Look, nobody saw Jesus come in his glory with his angels in 70 A.D. either, but Peter, James, and John saw Jesus in HIS GLORY, that is plainly said.

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

And let's look at the verses you posted;

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

I am sure you will not admit of this, but it is very possible that in each of these three examples, the first verse IS speaking of when Jesus comes to judge the world, but the second verse is speaking of the transfiguration. You know as well as I do that scripture is often written this way, it can jump from one time period to another from verse to verse, or even at a comma!

It is similar to the day of Pentacost when Peter said scripture was fulfilled;

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

On the day of Pentacost, when the disciples had flames above their heads and spoke with tongues, Peter said it was a fulfillment of scripture in Joel.

But not EVERYTHING Joel predicted happened. There was no blood, or smoke, the sun was not darkened, nor did the moon turn the color of blood. Yet Peter said this was a fulfillment of Joel. And it was, though it was only a "partial" fulfillment.

I propose it is the same when Jesus made these three statements in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The three disciples did not see Jesus come with his angels and judge the earth, but they most certainly saw Jesus come in power and glory. The rest will be fulfilled in the future, just as the rest of Joel will be fulfilled in the future.

 

[Bronconagurski]

You are right that that is what I do believe. But I also believe that John had already died. (BTW, I place the writing of Rev. in the mid 60s. I have a post on this in the archives.)

The some that Christ was referring to was not the twelve only, but that much larger group that followed Him to the foot of the mountain.

Ok, I thought that might be it, but wasn't sure. If Christ was talking about the larger group(which still would have included the inner circle of 3), however, how do you know some of them did not die before the transfiguration? Interesting that you believe John died before A.D. 70 everything I have read puts his death after A.D. 90. I will try and find your archived post.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Look, nobody saw Jesus come in his glory with his angels in 70 A.D. either, but Peter, James, and John saw Jesus in HIS GLORY, that is plainly said.

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

And let's look at the verses you posted;

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

I am sure you will not admit of this, but it is very possible that in each of these three examples, the first verse IS speaking of when Jesus comes to judge the world, but the second verse is speaking of the transfiguration. You know as well as I do that scripture is often written this way, it can jump from one time period to another from verse to verse, or even at a comma!

It is similar to the day of Pentacost when Peter said scripture was fulfilled;

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

On the day of Pentacost, when the disciples had flames above their heads and spoke with tongues, Peter said it was a fulfillment of scripture in Joel.

But not EVERYTHING Joel predicted happened. There was no blood, or smoke, the sun was not darkened, nor did the moon turn the color of blood. Yet Peter said this was a fulfillment of Joel. And it was, though it was only a "partial" fulfillment.

I propose it is the same when Jesus made these three statements in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The three disciples did not see Jesus come with his angels and judge the earth, but they most certainly saw Jesus come in power and glory. The rest will be fulfilled in the future, just as the rest of Joel will be fulfilled in the future.

I agree with you on the duel purpose of prophecy as well, some fulfilled now, some later. That is why the O.T. is so hard to interpret sometimes as it prophesies things that happen in that era, but refer to a future era as well.

 

[Winman]

Ok, I thought that might be it, but wasn't sure. If Christ was talking about the larger group(which still would have included the inner circle of 3), however, how do you know some of them did not die before the transfiguration? Interesting that you believe John died before A.D. 70 everything I have read puts his death after A.D. 90. I will try and find your archived post.

Jesus said there were some standing there that would not taste death until they SAW the kingdom of heaven. Only three disciples SAW the transfiguration.

Tom is distracting you by speaking about the disciples death, causing you to overlook that Jesus said they would SEE him come in power and glory, which they did. Peter, James, and John saw Jesus come in power and glory before they died.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Jesus said there were some standing there that would not taste death until they SAW the kingdom of heaven. Only three disciples SAW the transfiguration.

Tom is distracting you by speaking about the disciples death, causing you to overlook that Jesus said they would SEE him come in power and glory, which they did. Peter, James, and John saw Jesus come in power and glory before they died.

Right, I understand that the three saw that, I was just pointing out that they would be included in the larger group, of whom Tom thinks would see Jesus come in power. Someone in the larger group could have tasted death before the transfiguration. I believe that the scripture was talking about the transfiguration, but if it wasn't I was pointing out problems with his view.

 

[Winman]

I agree with you on the duel purpose of prophecy as well, some fulfilled now, some later. That is why the O.T. is so hard to interpret sometimes as it prophesies things that happen in that era, but refer to a future era as well.

Thank you, I am glad you see that. I believe that the transfiguration fulfilled "part" of what Jesus said, that is, they would see Jesus come "in his glory" before they tasted death.

You are absolutely correct about prophecy, there can be a time jump from one verse to another, sometimes even within one verse. I believe that is what happened here, just as on the day of Pentacost. Part of Joel was fulfilled, but not all.

 

[Winman]

Right, I understand that the three saw that, I was just pointing out that they would be included in the larger group, of whom Tom thinks would see Jesus come in power. Someone in the larger group could have tasted death before the transfiguration. I believe that the scripture was talking about the transfiguration, but if it wasn't I was pointing out problems with his view.

There is only one date that matters to Tom, and that is 70 A.D.

But did Jesus return before 70 A.D.? YES. He returned when Paul saw him on the road to Damascus. If you read Matthew 10 when Jesus said he would return before they went over all the cities of Israel, it actually fits the persecution of Saul (Paul) better than 70 A.D.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I believe this scripture was fulfilled when Jesus appeared to Saul (Paul).

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

During Paul's persecution, the believers were fleeing from city to city just as Jesus predicted. It was then that Jesus came, when he appeared to Paul. This had the effect of saving many believers.

If you ask me, when Jesus returned in 34-35 A.D. and appeared to Paul, this was a fulfillment of Matthew 10. Preterists NEVER mention this EVER.