Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?

[Amy.G]

Now you are starting to get it. The new birth and regeneration ARE the same thing. In fact the same word is used to signify both.

Now go back and read that with your new found knowledge I just imparted to you.:thumbs:

Oh good grief. Impart to me from your fountain of infallible knowledge how a person can be born again and still require salvation.

 

[Luke2427]

Does it make a difference what they all thought

Yea, it does make a difference- that is something you need to learn.

...or what Scripture adequately says?

Scripture teaches unequivocally that regeneration precedes faith as I have proven in a discourse with Amy several posts up.

Scripture states in a very plain manner we are made alive together WITH Christ.

Yes, it does. We are raised with Christ. That is regeneration. The resurrection is what it made it possible. That is all that is saying. All of this business you say below has nothing to do with the text. Nothing at all.

No amount of logic and twisting can lead anyone to any other conclusion but that spiritual life occurs WITH Christ...never prior. Being dead in our trespasses and sins (wait...I thought we were dead in Adam's?!?) means we were separated from God due to our sin, not that we are spiritual corpses needing to be made alive so we can be made alive together with Christ. Scripture is quite clear on this.

 

[Luke2427]

Oh good grief. Impart to me from your fountain of infallible knowledge how a person can be born again and still require salvation.

I've already done that. You must not have read the post yet. Keep reading and you will see where I prove Scripturally that regeneration precedes faith.

 

[Luke2427]

I agree but I do disagree with the idea that it can't be instantaneous. Of course election came way before but I think the entire salvation process DOES happen very quickly in succession in many cases. But then I know people who have said that they felt God drawing them for a time before they were saved so it doesn't have to be instantaneous all the time.

I suppose it can happen in an instant but it still happens chronologically with regeneration preceding faith of necessity.

 

[Amy.G]

I've already done that. You must not have read the post yet. Keep reading and you will see where I prove Scripturally that regeneration precedes faith.

I have not read it and you can't prove it. You have said very plainly that regeneration precedes salvation. You have said that a person is born again and still must be saved. There is no proof for that because it is anti-bible.

 

[webdog]

Yea, it does make a difference- that is something you need to learn.

You put your marbles in man...I'll take Scripture.

Scripture teaches unequivocally that regeneration precedes faith as I have proven in a discourse with Amy several posts up.

I just showed you we pass from death to life WITH CHRIST. NOT PRIOR...WITH. THAT is Scripture.

Yes, it does. We are raised with Christ. That is regeneration. The resurrection is what it made it possible. That is all that is saying. All of this business you say below has nothing to do with the text. Nothing at all.

It has everything to do with the text! You added to Scripture. It says we are made alive TOGETHER WITH Christ. Passing from spiritual death to spiritual life is what regeneration is. This nonsense a resurrection is needed to be made alive is silly and renders Christ powerless over death.

 

[annsni]

I suppose it can happen in an instant but it still happens chronologically with regeneration preceding faith or necessity.

Yep!
......

 

[webdog]

I suppose it can happen in an instant but it still happens chronologically with regeneration preceding faith or necessity.

Necessity for who?

 

[Luke2427]

You put your marbles in man...I'll take Scripture.

I suppose that makes you feel very pious and good about yourself. However, it actually displays a tremendous amount of haphazard arrogance.

Obviously Scripture is the only authority. No one has argued that on Baptist board any more fiercely than myself in the past 6 months.

But where your arrogance keeps you in the dark is this:

You see that well nigh every great hero of the Christian faith in the past 500 years has been Calvinistic. Rather than humbly saying, "You know, I better approach this thing cautiously since it is great presumption on my part to go against so many who are so much more brilliant than myself and have had the hand of God rest on them and their ministries in such a mightier way than I could even dream of," you just kick the greats to the curb as if they are not greater men than yourself.

That is arrogance.

Especially when you haphazardly call men like JONATHAN EDWARDS a man without the bounds of Christian orthodoxy.

That is utter MADNESS!!

You don't have to agree with the vast majority of the greats- but for you to haphazardly dismiss them the way you do proves a great deal about why you are still in the dark on this matter.

I just showed you we pass from death to life WITH CHRIST. NOT PRIOR...WITH. THAT is Scripture.

You didn't show anything. I told you what that is about. If you don't like it- that's your business.

It has everything to do with the text! You added to Scripture. It says we are made alive TOGETHER WITH Christ. Passing from spiritual death to spiritual life is what regeneration is. This nonsense a resurrection is needed to be made alive is silly and renders Christ powerless over death.

Yes, and I showed you that the resurrection is what makes regeneration possible so everyone who is regenerated is regenerated by, with, of, through (and every other preposition) Christ. That does not have a thing to do with faith needing to exist for Christ to raise someone from the dead.

The very thought that otherwise is the case is utter folly.

 

[Amy.G]

Luke, I proved to you from your own source, Theopedia, that regeneration and the new birth (born again) are the same thing. Yet you keep saying that a person needs to be regenerated before they can be saved.

That is unbiblical to the inth degree. If a person is born again, they ARE saved. If a person is saved they ARE born again. You cannot be born again and unsaved.

Maybe if I get more "abrasive" you'll admit defeat? :laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, I proved to you from your own source, Theopedia, that regeneration and the new birth (born again) are the same thing.

That's what I said. You must not be any more reading these posts than the man on the moon, Amy. I just told you that being born again and regeneration ARE the same thing.

Yet you keep saying that a person needs to be regenerated before they can be saved.

That is what Calvinism teaches and that is what theopedia says. Go back and look at the quote.

That is unbiblical to the inth degree. If a person is born again, they ARE saved.

I've already proven to you from the mouth of Jesus himself on his great discourse on the new birth in John 3 that regeneration MUST precede faith.

If a person is saved they ARE born again. You cannot be born again and unsaved.

Because you say so? Jesus said otherwise. Pit yourself against Him if you will, or prove that I am misreading him, or ignore the passage, or retreat. Those are really your only options at this point.

 

[Amy.G]

That's what I said. You must not be any more reading these posts than the man on the moon, Amy. I just told you that being born again and regeneration ARE the same thing.

Sigh. You said that a person needs to be regenerated before they can be saved, did you not???? You said that regeneration and salvation are 2 different things. So being born again is different than salvation.

New birth = salvation. They are the SAME. Yet you keep saying they are different and that regeneration precedes salvation. Prove it.

Originally Posted by Luke2427
It's very simple guys. But you are not paying attention and you cannot get it until you understand a very plain and simple truth.

Regeneration and salvation are NOT the same thing. They are terms that CAN be used interchangeably since they are inextricably linked. But they also must be allowed to stand on their own merit as independent terms.

Regeneration is LIFE.

Salvation is deliverence (from hell, the wrath of God, sin, Satan, etc...)

The problem some of you are having is that every time you see the word regeneration you think of salvation.

It's right there. You said it. We are wrong for thinking regeneration (new birth, born again) and salvation are the same. Ridiculous! I have never heard a Christian say such a thing.

 

[Luke2427]

Sigh. You said that a person needs to be regenerated before they can be saved, did you not???? You said that regeneration and salvation are 2 different things. So being born again is different than salvation.

Being born again is the way to be saved. One precedes the other.

New birth = salvation. They are the SAME. Yet you keep saying they are different and that regeneration precedes salvation. Prove it.

I already have. I have given you a half dozen Scriptures several posts back.

It's right there. You said it. We are wrong for thinking regeneration (new birth, born again) and salvation are the same. Ridiculous! I have never heard a Christian say such a thing.

No disrespect here but that means that you are not terribly familiar with this issue, then- since well nigh ALL Calvinistic scholars see it the way I have put it to you.

I hope what you and I accomplish in our exchanges, Amy, is what somebody accomplished with me several years ago- that you will learn what Calvinism ACTUALLY is instead of what Calvinism's enemies SAY it is.

 

[Amy.G]

You and I will never agree on this. There is no reason to go further.

 

[David Lamb]

Calvinist's don't do anything, doing anything at all for salvation is blasphemy to them.

Of course I am not acquainted with every single Calvinist who has ever lived, but I must say that I don't know of a single one who would put it like that. Certainly they would say that nothing they can do is enough to earn them God's favour. But the bible makes a distinction between faith/belief and works. For example, Paul wrote to the Christians in Ephesus, in Ephesians 2.8-9:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
​

I've never seen a Calvinist say they called on Jesus to save them, although I am sure some have.

Well, I am glad to be able to change that situation. I certainly called upon Jesus to save me. And He did, praise His wonderful name!

I have seen them say things like "I realized I was saved".
Well, you don't realize you are saved, you realize you are lost like the Philipian jailer did. Once you realize you are lost you will go to Jesus in your heart and cast your soul upon him for salvation. That is what it means to believe on Jesus, it means to place your life completely in his hands and depend upon him to save you, just like the blind and lame came to Jesus and depended upon him to heal them.

I have never come across any Calvinist who says anything like, "I realised I was saved," without first being brought to realise that they are lost. But that apart, I agree with your paragraph above.

If you do not come to Jesus, you will not be saved.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

If you have to come to Jesus to have life, then you must come when you are unregenerate. This alone refutes Calvinism. But Jesus also said clearly you must do something to be saved, you must come to him.

All the Christians I know, Calvinist or not, would add a hearty "Amen" to your sentence, "If you do not come to Jesus, you will not be saved." But as for the regenerate/unregenrate part, what about Lazarus? Dead in the tomb for four days. Yet when Jesus said to him, "Lazarus, come forth!" Lazarus walked out of his tomb. Was he still dead when he did that? Of course not! Jesus had given him new life. Without it, he could not have stood up, let alone walk out of the tomb.


Also, Jesus said in John 6.37 and 44:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

"No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

 

[webdog]

I suppose that makes you feel very pious and good about yourself. However, it actually displays a tremendous amount of haphazard arrogance.

You mean arrogant like this? "Yea, it does make a difference- that is something you need to learn"

Obviously Scripture is the only authority. No one has argued that on Baptist board any more fiercely than myself in the past 6 months.

Obviously not if you have to dismiss the clear meaning of the truth. It can't be more clear.

But where your arrogance keeps you in the dark is this:

You see that well nigh every great hero of the Christian faith in the past 500 years has been Calvinistic. Rather than humbly saying, "You know, I better approach this thing cautiously since it is great presumption on my part to go against so many who are so much more brilliant than myself and have had the hand of God rest on them and their ministries in such a mightier way than I could even dream of," you just kick the greats to the curb as if they are not greater men than yourself.

First, the only "hero" I have is Christ, and second, while I may not be as "brilliant" (your term) as some, I have the same Holy Spirit within as do many who do not hold to calvinism as truth.

That is arrogance.

Especially when you haphazardly call men like JONATHAN EDWARDS a man without the bounds of Christian orthodoxy.

That is utter MADNESS!!

You don't have to agree with the vast majority of the greats- but for you to haphazardly dismiss them the way you do proves a great deal about why you are still in the dark on this matter.

One of us is in the dark where Scripture is so plain and clear it would hit you in the face, that's for sure.

You didn't show anything. I told you what that is about. If you don't like it- that's your business.

You are blind, my friend. Theology has ruined your ability to take in simple Bible 101 basic truths. I also don't need for you to "tell me what it's about" when "we are made alive together with Christ" plainly tells me what it is all about!

Yes, and I showed you that the resurrection is what makes regeneration possible so everyone who is regenerated is regenerated by, with, of, through (and every other preposition) Christ. That does not have a thing to do with faith needing to exist for Christ to raise someone from the dead.

The very thought that otherwise is the case is utter folly.

Regeneration IS resurrection. Passing from death to life is BOTH. Responding to God is the only thing needed to pass from life to death. As in Lazarus' resurrection, Christ called him out...he came. There were no hidden, secret intermediate steps you are trying to prove. When we were separated from God due to our sin He made us alive together with Christ (through faith). Just allow the text to say what it does and stop trying to fit it into your square hole!

 

[webdog]

Being born again is the way to be saved. One precedes the other.

What happens to the person if they die regenerated...but not saved? It's been stated on this very thread that it could be days months or years before this occurs. Where do they spend eternity, Luke?

Also, Amy asked for Scripture showing you can be regenerated and not saved. You have not provided as to date.

Also Amy has a good grasp on Calvinism. Like myself I believe she leaned that way at one point with all of the text book "proof texts" to support it. I think you just have an over inflated view of your understanding on this doctrine or blindly dismiss any counter argument in favor of what a prior calvinist has said on it.

 

[annsni]

What happens to the person if they die regenerated...but not saved? It's been stated on this very thread that it could be days months or years before this occurs. Where do they spend eternity, Luke?

I can safely say that the God who created us could make sure that we were saved before we died. No one would be regenerated and not saved by the time of death. God's good that way.

 

[webdog]

I can safely say that the God who created us could make sure that we were saved before we died. No one would be regenerated and not saved by the time of death. God's good that way.

So is that another dispensation of salvation if someone were to die apart from faith in Christ having been regenerated?

I keep hearing the "logical" order is regeneration preceding faith, but given the immutable truths in Scripture the only "logical" conclusions is the fact those in Christ are the only ones saved, hence regeneration cannot precede faith.

 

[annsni]

So is that another dispensation of salvation if someone were to die apart from faith in Christ having been regenerated?

I keep hearing the "logical" order is regeneration preceding faith, but given the immutable truths in Scripture the only "logical" conclusions is the fact those in Christ are the only ones saved, hence regeneration cannot precede faith.

There is no question - you cannot be saved without faith. If the person were to be saved and God "quickened" their hearts, He would not allow them to die before they could respond in faith.