Originally posted by Helen:
I think Lordship salvation is the exact message Jesus was teaching. Look at John 8:24:
"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
That is the NIV translation, but it makes the same glossed-over error as all the English translations I am aware of. In the Greek, Jesus is saying, "if you do not believe I am I AM (ego eimi), you will indeed die in your sins."
In claiming the name of God, Jesus was certainly saying that if one did not believe He was God (and that is certainly the Lord of lords!), then one would die in one's sins.
The Jews certainly understood exactly what He was saying. In John 10:33, they are responding to Jesus' question about why they want to stone Him: "We are not stoning you for any of these [miracles]," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
Lordship salvation means that one believes Jesus is God, first of all. Secondly it has everything to do with obedience to Him as Lord and God. Can one be saved and not be obedient to Him? Not in the long run, no, for in Philippians 1:6 we read that He is faithful to finish the work He began. If you were born again in Christ, you will be raised by the Holy Spirit until you are in the likeness of Christ (Romans 8:28-30) and He WILL finish that work.
Christ was obedient. That is how each of us will be, too, who are His. Salvation is not simply escaping hell; it is becoming like Christ BECAUSE He is our LORD as well as our Savior.
John of Japan, although I think it is wonderful that you responded to the Gospel message when you were four, it is not until you were in your late teens or early 20's that you became independent of others and could wrestle with God yourself and become born again in Him. You did not need to be born again when you were four for you had not yet spiritually died (been separated from God) -- thus it was easy for you, as it is for almost all children, to respond to the stories of Jesus with trust and faith. Their angels always see the face of the Father in heaven, for these little ones have not yet been separated from God.
That does not mean that they do not have sin natures. We all do, from our beginnings, but if you read Romans 7:7-11 carefully, you will see that Paul was alive before he knew the law and it was only when he knew it that he died spiritually. You already belonged to Jesus as a four-year-old. All four-year-olds do.
It was later, when you chose to do wrong for the joy, or thrill, or simple sake, of doing what you knew was wrong in terms of GOD'S law, that you were separated from Him and died spiritually. It was then that you had to wrestle with Him and respond to Him with either
a 'yes' or a 'no.'
In Genesis 8:21, God tells Noah that the hearts of all men tend or are inclined toward evil from their YOUTH. That is not babyhood or childhood, but youth -- somewhere around mid to late teens. That's when the understanding of what rebellion really is finally comes into play. That is when choices start getting made that are not due to peer pressure or the promise of good grades or a raise in allowance or because of avoidance of punishment, etc. It is when right is chosen because it is right or wrong is chosen because it is wrong that a person has left childhood and must respond to Christ one way or another as a young adult.
Helen, I usually find your posts along the track that I attempt to travel. I, at least, appreciate one that is informative rather than an attempted one or two sentence answer, that does not do justice to the question. So, once again, you have hopped aboard the train as it rolled away from the station. However on this ride, I believe you need to check the ticket. You rolled out of Grand Central with a ticket that read Washington; unfortunately the train is the one bound for Chicago.
You are basically correct on the first part of the trip, IMO. Most translations are missing the train altogether with the rendering of John 8:24. The usage of additional words added here to the translation has the singular effect of taking away by adding, something that is usually difficult to accomplish. But not here. The WYC is one of the few I saw on 'Bible Gateway' that came close to gettin it right. And even it misses the full force. My 'emphasis added' here will show that, I think. At least that is my intention.
Therefore I said to you, that ye shall die in your sins; for if ye believe not that I AM , ye shall die in your sins.
This would seem to be consistent with the Greek text, which as far as I can determine, at the minute, is bascially unquestioned as to the construction of this verse, with four checked by me, showing no cited variants-
ειπον ουν υμιν οτι αποθανεισθε εν ταις αμαρτιαις υμων εαν γαρ μη πιστευσητε οτι εγω ειμι αποθανεισθε εν ταις αμαρτιαις υμων
The emphatic usage " 'εγ'ω 'ειμι " would seem to carry the 'force' in English of a thunderous "I AM", if I may use that figure of speech. And you are correct in that the Jews definitely got the picture. And how! The blasphemy you spoke of shows we are rolling right along.
However, the train has now just gone through a switch. It doesn't yet seem too different, for with the tracks running parallel here on the same ROW, the landscape doesn't seem to really have changed much at all. Looks familiar, so all's well? Hardly! For there is a blind "Horseshoe Bend" ahead, and on this track is approaching a giant locomotive slowly pulling a fully loaded freight train, that somehow wound up on this track. I believe it somehow got diverted from the Canadian/American railroad. It is emblazoned with a giant
C/A on the locomotive, so must be from that RR.
It never seems to get off on too many sidings but lumbers on, oblivious to other traffic. Someone (me)
just opened another switch to a siding, to avoid the impending disaster, and allow your engineer to safely stop the train you are riding, and avoid a derailment.
Here is the problem, as I see it. One who is a believer has two natures. Simply put, LS tends to forget this. It also does not make enough distinction, at least here, in that we have been once, for all, saved from sin at a point in time. That to say, from the penalty of sin. In discipleship, or Lordship, the concept of we are being saved from the power of sin, comes into play. The error is that these are too often confused, and unfortunately we wind up in a situation where we want to confuse our standing with our state. I could continue this further for many pages, but will for the sake of brevity
quote verse four of one of the 6000+ hymns by Charles Wesley:
"He breaks the power of cancelled sin, He sets the prisoner free. His blood can make the foulest clean, His blood avails for me."
As to the last part of the post, concerning JoJ, I'd suggest that your position is eisogesis at best. You are putting too much emphasis on what you think God is saying to Noah, and Paul's illustration, as opposed to what I believe is actually being said, both here and in other Scriptures, IMO. Too many have testified they have been saved long before they were "mid to late teens", for me to believe they were not. I will admit to being 'cautious' when one testifies 'out of the blue' that they were saved at such an age as JoJ. However, in hnis case, at least, his testimony is not inconsistent with Scripture. Good enough for me. I "walked an aisle" as a teenager around fourteen or so. Was I saved at that time? I think so. Am I sure? No. I certainly felt different, in ways I cannot even describe. Did I understand? I think so. But salvation is not an 'experiential' thing. It is not, nor cannot be based on 'experience'. It is based on "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." I have done that, ergo I am saved. That is likewise the testimony of JoJ.
In His grace,
Ed
