Hi, whatever. (Love that name!)
So please define it for me, whatever. At what point are you accepting Christ as Lord in order to be saved? Is there a percentage? Or how do you tell? It all sounds pretty vague to me. Help me out here.
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Is Lordship Salvation a misnomer?
- Thread starter Bro. Ruben
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So please define it for me, whatever. At what point are you accepting Christ as Lord in order to be saved? Is there a percentage? Or how do you tell? It all sounds pretty vague to me. Help me out here.
Well said, JackRUS.
Hi, whatever. (Love that name!)</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks!
I would say that it's around the point where you realize that there is something wrong with thinking things like this:So please define it for me, whatever. At what point are you accepting Christ as Lord in order to be saved? Is there a percentage? Or how do you tell? It all sounds pretty vague to me. Help me out here.
A lot of people want to be "saved" now and still live like they want to and still go to Heaven. That's what LS is reacting to. You don't have to be 100% faithful, of course, because as you say that isn't possible. But you ought to at least know that when you are not 100% faithful then confession and repentance are in order.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
What does Christ's description of the Judgement in MA 25 mean to you? How can you possibly get around the fact that true believers will follow Him, not sit around saying that salvation is Grace + nothing. It makes for a nice free ride but it isn't Biblical.
Hi, whatever. (Love that name!)</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks!
I would say that it's around the point where you realize that there is something wrong with thinking things like this:So please define it for me, whatever. At what point are you accepting Christ as Lord in order to be saved? Is there a percentage? Or how do you tell? It all sounds pretty vague to me. Help me out here.
A lot of people want to be "saved" now and still live like they want to and still go to Heaven. That's what LS is reacting to. You don't have to be 100% faithful, of course, because as you say that isn't possible. But you ought to at least know that when you are not 100% faithful then confession and repentance are in order. </font>[/QUOTE]
Whatever-
I agree- great name! Anywho-
I guess we agree on this, but I'll double check to make sure. Isn't this exactly what is taught in Scripture, especially in I John? And more particularly I John 1:6- 2:7? That's how I read it anyway.
Second question: Apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, would you not agree that we should basically pattern our lives after the righteous saints of Scripture? I await your response
In His grace,
Ed
Okay, not bad, whatever.
And I know what LS is reacting to, the lack of emphasis on repentance, the "say a prayer and you are saved through that prayer" mentality, etc. I agree with it so far as that. However, what many LS folk call "easy believism" has been around for a long, long time. It is not recent. Check out D. L. Moody's sermons, even some of what Spurgeon writes in The Soul Winner. In fact, personally I am with Moody all the way. Believing in Christ is certainly simple.
But here is the historical argument again. Am I supposed to believe that after almost 2000 years the evangelical church still does not have it right about salvation, and suddenly in the 1970's we need Ten Pas and MacArthur to tell us that faith is not enough, we must accept Christ as Lord, too? I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to show me LS doctrine before the 1970's.
I read MacArthur's book years ago with great interest, but then was sorely disappointed. The problems he said he was trying to correct didn't exist with me and the great majority of those I hang around with. I believe strongly in repentance, and I don't believe that a prayer saves you. Prayer is a work, and repentance and faith are needed for salvation. But a poor, lost, depraved sinner receiving Christ as Lord in addition to Savior? I can't find it in Scripture.
And I know what LS is reacting to, the lack of emphasis on repentance, the "say a prayer and you are saved through that prayer" mentality, etc. I agree with it so far as that. However, what many LS folk call "easy believism" has been around for a long, long time. It is not recent. Check out D. L. Moody's sermons, even some of what Spurgeon writes in The Soul Winner. In fact, personally I am with Moody all the way. Believing in Christ is certainly simple.
But here is the historical argument again. Am I supposed to believe that after almost 2000 years the evangelical church still does not have it right about salvation, and suddenly in the 1970's we need Ten Pas and MacArthur to tell us that faith is not enough, we must accept Christ as Lord, too? I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to show me LS doctrine before the 1970's.
I read MacArthur's book years ago with great interest, but then was sorely disappointed. The problems he said he was trying to correct didn't exist with me and the great majority of those I hang around with. I believe strongly in repentance, and I don't believe that a prayer saves you. Prayer is a work, and repentance and faith are needed for salvation. But a poor, lost, depraved sinner receiving Christ as Lord in addition to Savior? I can't find it in Scripture.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Now, I can go back and read the rest of the thread to see if this is a duplicate response!
Another attempt, and you may be right in your question, "Am I supposed to believe that after almost 2000 years the evangelical church still does not have it right about salvation."
You may or may not have read my post on page 3, but it contains “Jesus Christ is our Lord, but what we must watch for is Lordship salvation that there is something tacked onto our Lord Jesus”. This is what Christ had Paul tell us, that by the Grace of our Father that came Through Him (Jesus Christ) all today will be saved if we Believe on Jesus Christ for our Salvation.
Please read the following in prayer and understanding for here we can see the changing of the gospel, or to whom the Gentile is to listen; the Jew also if they will today. This is not God changing His mind, but implementing His plan that He had from the beginning. Paul is preaching to the proselyte Gentile’s who came out of the Pentecostal church; those who were standing on Peter’s foundation. The Apostle to the Gentiles brought them over to his (Paul’s) foundation. We must be on the foundation that Paul built on the foundation of Christ Jesus if we are to be raptured.
I Thessalonians 2:12-20,” ”12. That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
13. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
14. For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16. Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
17. But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.
18. Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
19. For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
20. For ye are our glory and joy."
Christ sent Paul to speak to me a Gentile. Christ is saving us differently than He did His people in that day. They come to the Cross By Faith Through the “great commission” for the “remission of their sins”. The heathen cannot come that way. We come to the Cross-Through faith of Christ Jesus for the “remission of our sins”.
Verse 19 tells us what our “hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing” is. We will be raptured. Others will go through the tribulation, and as we know many do teach that doctrine, and they will get their wish.
Don’t believe this is what verse 19 means? Chapter 1 verses 9 and 10. ”For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
This is that other gospel we are to believe unless we wish to go through the great tribulation.
What is Lordship salvation. Paul tells us in the first chapter of every Epistle he writes to the Gentile – ”Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ we are saved by the Grace of God. We go to the Father through our Lord. There is no other way to salvation.
Christian faith, ituttut
Definitely not.
You can't deny the doctrine of Christ and be saved, as 2 John indicates.What I am saying is that you can accept Him as Savior without knowing about His Lordship. You yourself put the doctrine of salvation eloquently in the thread on what is necessary for salvation. And you didn't mention anything about Lordship there.
What the hard core LS people say is that you must consciously accept Him as Lord simultaneously as accepting Him as Savior, and that is not in the Bible.
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Now, I can go back and read the rest of the thread to see if this is a duplicate response!
</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, I don't believe anyone has answered this sally yet, Calvibaptist, so I will.It is really very simple. It says, confess the Lord Jesus. It doesn't say, "Confess Jesus as Lord!" Problem solved!
Wow, thanks Mike. I do want to grow in grace!Originally posted by MikeinGhana:
BTW, JOJ, welcome to the family. I have agreat new converts book I'd like to share with you.
Yes, I think we agree on those two questions.Originally posted by EdSutton:
Whatever-
I agree- great name! Anywho-
I guess we agree on this, but I'll double check to make sure. Isn't this exactly what is taught in Scripture, especially in I John? And more particularly I John 1:6- 2:7? That's how I read it anyway.
Second question: Apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, would you not agree that we should basically pattern our lives after the righteous saints of Scripture? I await your responseto the two questions, to be sure we are basically on the same wave-length.Thanks.
In His grace,
Ed
Hi, ituttut.
Now your name, I'm puzzled by. Do you tut tut at people or are you descended from King Tut? But no doubt there is a deeper meaning!
I did carefully read your post on page 3, and this one, and I believe we are in agreement. I'm still trying to digest everything, and it is flying so fast I'm not keeping up. For sure, thanks for pointing out the Bib Sac article from 1986. I looked it up on my Theological Journal disk, and plan to read it all.
One thing I have learned from this discussion is that there may be as many definitions of LS as there are people on the Baptist Board!! As MikeinGhana wrote on page 3, there is an area of semantics here. Some of you are hearing me say something I'm not meaning, and vice versa all around!
The article ituttut mentioned, by Livingston Blauvelt, Jr., has this definition of LS: "What is lordship salvation? This is the view that for salvation a person must trust Jesus Christ as his Savior from sin and must also commit himself to Christ as Lord of his life, submitting to His sovereign authority" (p. 37). This is exactly the definition I have given it since I first heard Ten Pas teaching in 1972.
The article goes on to say, "This teaching is false because it subtly adds works to the clear and simple condition for salvation set forth in the Word of God. An unbeliever, to avail himself of the salvation offered in Christ, must only accept Him as his own personal Savior, believing that His death for sin on the cross was final and sufficient forever. This is not to minimize the importance of urging a soon committal to the sovereign authority of Jesus Christ. Of course it is recognized that many people may 'say' they have faith (James 2:14) but have no genuine conversion. Mere verbal assent or mental acquiescence to the fact of Christ’s death, without any conviction of personal sin, is inadequate. That kind of so-called faith is pious pretense" (ibid).
I agree with this assessment by Blauvelt. Bedtime approaches here in Japan. I wish you all a fond, "Oyasumi nasai," rest well.
MikeinGhana
New Member
QUOTE]Wow, thanks Mike. I do want to grow in grace! [/QB][/QUOTE]
Send me a copy of your birth certificate first. You must be of age before you can have it.
[/QB][/QUOTE]Send me a copy of your birth certificate first. You must be of age before you can have it.
John Ellwood Taylor
New Member
Ernest Reisinger disagrees with your conclusion that this teaching is onyl recent (from www.founders.org/FJ13/article1.html)
"Lordship View Is Historic:
Because of the popularity of the Scofield Bible and Dispensational teaching the Scriptural Lordship doctrine has fallen upon hard times, having been largely forgotten by the majority of fundamentalist churches. However, we must never forget that Lordship salvation has been espoused by all the historic creeds and confessions, and by such note-worthy theological giants as John Calvin, John Owen, John Bunyan, John Brown, John Murray, and thank God, embraced by many respected recent scholars and theologians, such as, Louis Berkhof, James M. Boise, John Gertsner, R. B. Kuiper, James I. Packer, A. W. Pink, R. C. Sproul and the late Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones."
Definitely not.
You can't deny the doctrine of Christ and be saved, as 2 John indicates.What I am saying is that you can accept Him as Savior without knowing about His Lordship. You yourself put the doctrine of salvation eloquently in the thread on what is necessary for salvation. And you didn't mention anything about Lordship there.
What the hard core LS people say is that you must consciously accept Him as Lord simultaneously as accepting Him as Savior, and that is not in the Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]And who is going to trust their salvaton to someone who ISN'T God? I really don't understand your argument at all, I'm afraid. Jesus states time and time again that He is God. He is worshiped as God, accepted as God by the believers, known as God by the writers. That is the FIRST understanding. The SECOND is that He is the Savior.
He could not possibly save us unless He were Lord and God. You simply cannot have a Savior in Christ without knowing and accepting Him as God first!
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