Is Lordship Salvation a misnomer?

EdSutton · Mar 6, 2006

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Originally posted by EdSutton: <blockquote>quote:<hr />

OK, S&N, which one of these two things are you claiming-

That you are perfect, and you have given all (you did make the claim for 100%, you remember) and are beyond sin? Since, obviously, if and when one does sin, he or she ain't hit that 100% thing, yet.

Or are you claiming to be usaved at worst, and unsure at best? I don't get it, so I can use a little help, here! YOu know, inquiring minds, and all that.

In His grace,
Ed

In no way am I claiming to be perfect. As Paul Said in Romans 7:15-19, Christians will digress to their previous nature of sin. I believe that the important thing is for us to recognize our sin and repent. An important scripture in this area is the one I quoted before. I'll repeat it here.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

This says nothing about living a perfect life, as you claim, but rather emphasizes that a person can only serve one master, Christ or the flesh. Those who call after Jesus but are living in the flesh are not Christians.

Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

As Paul said in Romans 6:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

True Christians will live lives that are pleasing to Him. It is clear from the scripture I've posted and a lot of other scriptural references that the master of a Christian's life is Christ and they continually strive to follow His commandments. [/QUOTE]Okay, S&N, this is the post you have been a-waiting with bated breath. And probably baited breath, as well. Let's start from the top.

You wrote:
"In no way am I claiming to be perfect. As Paul Said in Romans 7:15-19, Christians will digress to their previous nature of sin. "

In fact, you are the one who said, in response to JackRUS' question of-

"What is the percentage of lordship over ourselves that we must give up in order to be saved, and where is the number found in Scripture? (If it's 100%, then the doctrine falls flat on it's face since we all sin.)"-

the following:

"Bad news. The Biblical answer is 100%. Basically, what you'rer (sic) saying is you want to be saved but you want to go on living as you did before. I'm afraid God won't accept your deal with Him. It's not the gospel."

My response to your '100%' claim was my post. I could say that here you answered two 'points' that JRUS didn't say, for he made no such claim.

Neverthless, how are you reconciling "the Biblical answer is 100%" with your closing statement here of -
"It is clear from the scripture I've posted and a lot of other scriptural references that the master of a Christian's life is Christ and they continually strive to follow His commandments."?

Going from "100%" to being "Lord of our lives" to "True Christians will live lives that are pleasing to Him." to "... are expected to endure until the end." to "...continually strive to follow His commandments", in my mind, covers an awful lot of ground, as we farmers say. (And all the above are your quotes, BTW.) At what point is this 'break'? One sin? Two? Three? Twenty-seven? One hundred twelve? One thousand, eight hundred fifty nine? Forty-one thousand, three hundred twelve? You tell me!; you made the claim of "100%". I'm pretty sure one sin 'not repented of', (which words 'repent of, or from sin' are not found in the Bible, BTW) is something else than 100%.

I don't know how you, or anyone else for that matter, are intending to appear "on that day". I only know for myself. And I'm going to be there as the 'biggest chicken' you've ever seen, even though I'm going to be perfectly righteous. Without question! And I'm not going to be basing it on some attempt of "making Christ Lord". AS i once heard one person say, "You're too late for that. It can't be done! God has already beat you to it! The Bible doesn't talk like that! It never says 'Make Him Lord!' It says He is!!"

I'm going to be hiding behind my 'Big Brother', the Lord Jesus Christ. I'll not be easy to find! When I am found, I will "... be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." (Phlp. 3:9) And that is going to be the same righteousess imputed to Abraham, when he 'wised up', and believed God, 'stead of trying to do it on his own, as I have mentioned in a previous post, and I'm gonna be one of those David spoke of who, apart from works, has this righteousness placed to my account by faith, in the manner of which Paul speaks in Romans 3.

I'm not going to try and stand on how 'good a job' I did of ''yielding' to Him as Lord and Master'. I don't like those chances of being how sure I got my ducks all lined up, 'cause I got it figgered out. That would put me right there with Cain, Judas, and those of Matt. 7:21-23 who all "did many wonderful things for God." I don't like that religious crowd.

I'd rather be with a group I can better relate to, like Noah, Jacob, Rahab, Job, David, Solomon, Peter, Samson, Paul and 'my hero' - Lot. Way I got it figured, that's a drunk, a thief, an harlot, the biggest egoist in history, an adulterous murderer, the greatest 'womanizer' in history, a 'Christ denier', a whoremonger, the chief of sinners, and the Mayor of Sodom. That's some of the ones who were righteous by faith. That's where I 'takes my chances'.

If that is "easy-believism", whatever that means, then I guess I qualify as one of those. However I detest the straw man of "cheap grace".

How dare ANYONE to speak of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that was purchased with His own precious blood as 'cheap!!

That is about as close to being blasphemy, as one can come, IMO, and certainly falls under the condemnation of Hebrews 10:29-30 .

In His grace,
Ed

[ March 06, 2006, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: EdSutton ]

StraightAndNarrow · Mar 6, 2006

Originally posted by John of Japan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by On the side of truth:
Hello,
Not sure if this post of mine got overlooked and if it did that is OK. My question is what would you all think of those who would be soft core Lordship Salvation and believed in our inability to make Jesus 100% Lord of our lives but that we should be at least WILLING to. That it deals more with the attitude of our heart. What do you all say to that? Thanks

My response would probably not be a good one because this is what I consider LS. This is also where MacArthur stands if we take the time to listen to him. I agree with this view. I don't agree that people will be 100% obedient to Jesus ever in this life, let alone right when they come to Him. If that is what people understand as LS, it is unbiblical. [/QUOTE]Calvibaptist, have you read the whole thread? The 100% brand is indeed what is being taught in some churches. [/QUOTE]I don't believe that we can ever be perfect in with regard to making Jesus Lord of our life. I do believe, however, that those who claim that we can be saved without making Jesus Lord of our life are preaching a false gospel.

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

whatever · Mar 6, 2006

Originally posted by EdSutton:
... For example, I have previously posted on two threads on the BB asking what is, to me, an exceedingly simple question, with a specific Biblical answer.

That question was, "What must Ed Sutton do to be saved?" It was almost beyond pallor the "jumping around" I received in answer to this. Only one person answered with "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.", and let it stop at that. In fact, that is the exact answer Paul gave to the Phillipian 'prison keeper'.

Umm - don't you mean "Believe on Jesus Christ and you will be saved"? What gives with this "Lord" stuff?

whatever · Mar 6, 2006

Originally posted by JackRUS:
Whatever.
I don't understand this statement of yours in light of Scripture:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm not sure why you think I am annoyed. Dumbfounded might be a better adjective. Why you would choose Lot, whom the Bible does not tell us to emulate, when you could choose from so many others who the Bible does tell us to emulate, is beyond me.

That was certainly not Peter's take on Lot.

"And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their
unlawful deeds
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" 2 Pet. 2:7-9

And why do you suppose that God sent Jesus and two angels in Genesis 18-19 to deliver Lot out of Sodom if he was so bad as you suppose? [/QUOTE]Oh yeah? Well why do you think God sent three angels to Abraham but only two to Lot?

Sorry, just kidding about that.

I was just going by what Genesis says about Lot's character, especially chapter 19. What kind of man offers his daughters to be raped? What kind of man argues with the angels who have come to rescue him? Where did the Moabites and Ammonites come from? Even his family did not respect him.

I'd say that the best thing about Lot was his God.

To answer your question, I suppose that the reason God sent two angels to rescue Lot was Abraham.

Now here's a question for you - when Abraham was asking for mercy for Sodom why do you suppose he stopped at 10 righteous people?

John of Japan · Mar 6, 2006

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
I don't believe that we can ever be perfect in with regard to making Jesus Lord of our life. I do believe, however, that those who claim that we can be saved without making Jesus Lord of our life are preaching a false gospel.

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You know what? I certainly want to get the Gospel right and not preach a false Gospel. So earlier on this thread I carefully defined the Gospel, based squarely on Scripture. So if you have a better definition of the Gospel based on Scripture, let's hear it.

Now you will have to do better than the verses you listed here. Every single verse you listed is addressed to saved people, and not a single verse has "Gospel" in the immediate context, with the possible exception of Rev. 14--but then you didn't mention that verse.

John of Japan · Mar 7, 2006

Originally posted by EdSutton:

If that is "easy-believism", whatever that means, then I guess I qualify as one of those. However I detest the straw man of "cheap grace". How dare ANYONE to speak of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that was purchased with His own precious blood as 'cheap!!

That is about as close to being blasphemy, as one can come, IMO, and certainly falls under the condemnation of Hebrews 10:29-30 .

In His grace,
Ed

Amen and amen! Well said, Ed. I cast myself wholly on the grace of God for salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. I trust in Him, not my own good intentions. I did nothing to save myself, including a fruitless attempt by a lost soul to dedicate myself to a Savior Who had not yet saved me.

whatever · Mar 7, 2006

Originally posted by EdSutton:
Now to reply to whatever:

Wow, what a long post. That must have taken a long time, but I really don't like long posts. I did read it and I will respond to the salient posts. If I do not respond to something that you think I should please let me know and I will. I just don't like long posts.

About sounding like an LS advocate, I meant that your "fruit observer (not inspector)" comments sound a lot like the parts of MacArthur's LS book that I really didn't like. That's all I meant.

On belief/obedience, that's where James comes in. He meant something when he wrote "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." So shouldn't I be able to show myself my faith by my works? If not, why not? Where did James go wrong?

On my suggestions, Hebrews says that we should emulate those who taught us the faith ("imitate their faith", ESV), and John says that we should imitate those who do good, and Paul tells Timothy to follow what he had heard from Paul, and Paul also told the Corinthians that they should imitate him. Sorry for not being clearer.

On Lot, your exact words were "I'll suggest him as the ultimate role model from the Bible". If by "ultimate role model" you meant "my Biblical 'hero'" then I wish you had made that clearer. Most people do want to follow the example of their role model, since that's what a role model is for. But even though you said that Lot was the "ultimate role model from the Bible", if you are sure that you meant "nothing about wanting to follow his example" then I will take your word for it.

I think that covers it. If I missed something please let me know. (I'm sure you will.)

Oh yeah, about the formatting, no problem. I think I got your meaning.

whatever · Mar 7, 2006

Originally posted by EdSutton:
If that is "easy-believism", whatever that means, then I guess I qualify as one of those. However I detest the straw man of "cheap grace". How dare ANYONE to speak of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that was purchased with His own precious blood as 'cheap!!

That is about as close to being blasphemy, as one can come, IMO, and certainly falls under the condemnation of Hebrews 10:29-30 .

In His grace,
Ed

Hey Ed,

Have you ever read Bonhoeffer? As far as I know, he originated the term "cheap grace", and he made it clear that he was NOT speaking of "the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that was purchased with His own precious blood" as "cheap". He was speaking of the false "grace" that hucksters peddle, the kind of "grace" that comes as a result of "faith" without repentance, and often without any sort of understanding at all. It's the kind of "grace" that comes from "repeat after me" prayers and the like. I don't think that's what you believe. I also missed where S&N or anyone else used the term, so I'm not sure what you are objecting to, but I just thought I'd throw this out there.

StraightAndNarrow · Mar 8, 2006

Originally posted by John of Japan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
I don't believe that we can ever be perfect in with regard to making Jesus Lord of our life. I do believe, however, that those who claim that we can be saved without making Jesus Lord of our life are preaching a false gospel.

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You know what? I certainly want to get the Gospel right and not preach a false Gospel. So earlier on this thread I carefully defined the Gospel, based squarely on Scripture. So if you have a better definition of the Gospel based on Scripture, let's hear it.

Now you will have to do better than the verses you listed here. Every single verse you listed is addressed to saved people, and not a single verse has "Gospel" in the immediate context, with the possible exception of Rev. 14--but then you didn't mention that verse. [/QUOTE]Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The fact that all the scripture I quoted is addressed to saved people is exactly the point. The Bible is saying that someone who was converted sometime in the past (say 30 years ago) still must live a Christian life. Otherwise:

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I'm not sure what the importance is of having the word "gospel" in the verse.

John of Japan · Mar 8, 2006

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The fact that all the scripture I quoted is addressed to saved people is exactly the point. The Bible is saying that someone who was converted sometime in the past (say 30 years ago) still must live a Christian life. Otherwise:

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I'm not sure what the importance is of having the word "gospel" in the verse.

StraightAndNarrow, if you will kindly read back through the thread, my argument all along has been that the doctrine of Lordship Salvation deals with the moment of salvation. Therefore it is imperative what you proclaim to the sinner. If you truly believe in Lordship Salvation, meaning committment to Christ as Lord at the moment of salvation IN ORDER TO RECEIVE SALVATION, then you had better proclaim that as part of your Gospel. Therefore the fact that your verses are not about the Gospel has everything to do with my position, especially in light of the view that you said my Gospel was a false Gospel.

I do not deny that there will be either Christian growth and dedication in a believer's life, or there will be chastening from the Lord. This is because he is regenerated, born again, changed by the Holy Spirit. But what happens after or as a result of salvation has never been my point in this entire thread.

Concerning the verse you quote above, once again it is speaking to believers, not people who need to get saved, as you yourself note. Ernest Pickering says, "It should be noted that these exhortations are in the active voice, 'Take up your cross,' and not 'You have taken up your cross.' Christ is exhorting those who have already trusted Him for salvation to follow Him as Lord of their lives." ( Lordship Salvation, p. 6; emphasis in the original) Thus, this passage teaches what I and others have been saying all along: a saved person needs to dedicate himself to the Lord.

Faith alone · Mar 8, 2006

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The fact that all the scripture I quoted is addressed to saved people is exactly the point. The Bible is saying that someone who was converted sometime in the past (say 30 years ago) still must live a Christian life. Otherwise:

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I'm not sure what the importance is of having the word "gospel" in the verse.

SAN,

By your description above, how is it possible for a Christian to ever have assurance of salvation?

FA

Faith alone · Mar 8, 2006

Originally posted by whatever:
Hey Ed,

Have you ever read Bonhoeffer? As far as I know, he originated the term "cheap grace", and he made it clear that he was NOT speaking of "the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that was purchased with His own precious blood" as "cheap". He was speaking of the false "grace" that hucksters peddle, the kind of "grace" that comes as a result of "faith" without repentance, and often without any sort of understanding at all. It's the kind of "grace" that comes from "repeat after me" prayers and the like. I don't think that's what you believe. I also missed where S&N or anyone else used the term, so I'm not sure what you are objecting to, but I just thought I'd throw this out there.

whatever,

The problem is that Bonhoeffer considers METANOIA/"repentance" to be a "turning from sin." He did stress the idea of "allowing oneself to be caught up into the way of Jesus Christ" as the meaning of repentance, whatever that means (Letters and Papers from Prison, p.190). He also insisted that faith needed to accompany repentance. But if repentance is not seen as focusing on the mind, then that's simply unbiblical.

But though Bonhoeffer emphasized confession and repentance, he did so in the context of discipleship, not the gospel. But he did say that "Cheap grace is preaching forgiveness without requiring repentance." Well according to his understanding of "repentance," this is plain and simple works salvation.

"Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without discipline, communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. "
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship, p. 30

He also said, "only he who believes is obedient, and only he who is obedient believes." (COD, p. 54)

If Bonhoeffer is opposed to emphasizing being re-born yet not encouraging that the believer grow in discipleship, that is one thing, and I certainly agree with the concern over such a ministry philosophy. But if he is saying that without discipleship, the cross, that faith is not sufficient IOT gain eternal life, then that is salvation by works.

FA

EdSutton · Mar 8, 2006

Originally posted by whatever:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by EdSutton:
If that is "easy-believism", whatever that means, then I guess I qualify as one of those. However I detest the straw man of "cheap grace". How dare ANYONE to speak of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that was purchased with His own precious blood as 'cheap!!

That is about as close to being blasphemy, as one can come, IMO, and certainly falls under the condemnation of Hebrews 10:29-30 .

In His grace,
Ed

Hey Ed,

Have you ever read Bonhoeffer? As far as I know, he originated the term "cheap grace", and he made it clear that he was NOT speaking of "the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that was purchased with His own precious blood" as "cheap". He was speaking of the false "grace" that hucksters peddle, the kind of "grace" that comes as a result of "faith" without repentance, and often without any sort of understanding at all. It's the kind of "grace" that comes from "repeat after me" prayers and the like. I don't think that's what you believe. I also missed where S&N or anyone else used the term, so I'm not sure what you are objecting to, but I just thought I'd throw this out there. [/QUOTE]FTR, No, I've not read more than the briefest excerpts, usually quotes, by Dietrick Bonhoeffer, although I'm aware of him.

As to what, in your words, I "... are objecting to", as well as "where S&N or anyone else used the term,", - this is found on Page 9 in this thread where S&N writes:

The Church has definitely slipped into easy-believerism and cheap grace (My emphasis- Ed) . It's definitely sad to see but it's up to every true Christian to fight this false gospel at every opportunity. Contrary to what most want to believe, being a Christian is not easy and requires perseverence. No I'm not perfect but I'm getting better every day because my role model is perfect.

I also certainly oppose what I call "decisionism" - "Just make a decision", and any of this approach is too much, IMO. And the "repeat after me prayers" are an example of this. This has nothing to do with the gospel; "Ask Christ into your life" has nothing to do with it; "Make Jesus Lord of your life"; and on and on we can go.

I'm going to attempt "to kill three birds with one stone, here".

First, S&N writes:
"...being a Christian is not easy... "

I'm almost certain I remember something about Jesus saying something to the effect that "...My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Obviously, it appears the advocates of LS, such as S&N, here, think they have a better understnding of this than Jesus. I suggest any who hold this, are seriously misled here.

And I suggest that while Jesus' yoke may be easy, the yoke LS attempts to impose, like that of the 'Judaizers', recorded in Acts 15, certainly is a yoke that is 'hard'!

Second, S&N writes:
" I'm getting better every day because my role model is perfect."

While I agree 'as to the role model', I suggest that one who claims to be "getting better every day" has surpassed even the Apostle Paul and the prophet Isaiah. I just ain't ready to make such a claim. The popular song that has these lines may be humerous. I'd suggest that Christians might be better served to look elsewhere for guidance. I know I will do so.

And once again, I'll suggest that some well known verses cannot be improved on, such as Acts 16:31; John 3:16-18, 36, John 6:47; etc. I Cor. 15:1-8 clealy defines the gospel. We are told to "repent, and believe the gospel." (Mk. 1:15) Rom. 1:15-18 gives the purpose of the gospel. II Cor. 4:1-6 (NKJV) says, subheading - "The Light of Christ’s Gospel"

1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

"Lordship Salvation" as a 'teaching' is not to be confused with with "Jesus IS Lord" (Rom. 10:9) as to His Deity. He IS the object of gospel. This is clearly taught in Scripture.

Nor is "Lordship Salvation" as a 'teaching' to be confused with His 'Lordship' in our Discipleship as "sons of God" when we have "received Him, ...who believed in His name", and were "born... of God." (John 1:11-14) As disciples, we are the subjects of the gospel.

But "Lordship Salvation" as a 'teaching' attempts to 'cross-breed' the two Biblical teachings of 'free salvation' and 'costly discipleship' into one amalgamated whole, as it attempts to 'solve' this perceived "shallow Christianity, decisionism, etc." Unfortunately, it's proposed 'solution' is "another gospel",.

In His grace,
Ed

StraightAndNarrow · Mar 8, 2006

Originally posted by John of Japan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The fact that all the scripture I quoted is addressed to saved people is exactly the point. The Bible is saying that someone who was converted sometime in the past (say 30 years ago) still must live a Christian life. Otherwise:

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I'm not sure what the importance is of having the word "gospel" in the verse.

StraightAndNarrow, if you will kindly read back through the thread, my argument all along has been that the doctrine of Lordship Salvation deals with the moment of salvation. Therefore it is imperative what you proclaim to the sinner. If you truly believe in Lordship Salvation, meaning committment to Christ as Lord at the moment of salvation IN ORDER TO RECEIVE SALVATION, then you had better proclaim that as part of your Gospel. Therefore the fact that your verses are not about the Gospel has everything to do with my position, especially in light of the view that you said my Gospel was a false Gospel.

I do not deny that there will be either Christian growth and dedication in a believer's life, or there will be chastening from the Lord. This is because he is regenerated, born again, changed by the Holy Spirit. But what happens after or as a result of salvation has never been my point in this entire thread.

Concerning the verse you quote above, once again it is speaking to believers, not people who need to get saved, as you yourself note. Ernest Pickering says, "It should be noted that these exhortations are in the active voice, ( Lordship Salvation, p. 6; emphasis in the original) Thus, this passage teaches what I and others have been saying all along: a saved person needs to dedicate himself to the Lord.

[/QUOTE]Once again, I agree with you but not with your concluion. Jesus command IS an onging requirement not a momentary promise. "Follow Me" IS His requirement for salvation. I am talking about the gospel according to JESUS. This says that those who make a one-time decision without following it up with an earnest attempt to 'Follow Him" ARE NOT SAVED. I understand what you've been saying. I just don't agree with it. Are you tying to argue that the LORD isn't stating the gospel in this passage? This isn't the only place where he proclaims the requirement for savation. Here are the others I found:

Jesus Said Follow Me
________________________________________
Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
________________________________________
Mat 8:19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
________________________________________

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
________________________________________
Mat 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.
________________________________________
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
________________________________________
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
________________________________________
Mar 2:14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the [son] of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.
________________________________________
Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
________________________________________
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
________________________________________
Luk 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.
________________________________________
Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
________________________________________
Luk 9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain [man] said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
________________________________________
Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
________________________________________
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
________________________________________
Jhn 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
________________________________________
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
________________________________________
Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
________________________________________
Jhn 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
________________________________________
Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
________________________________________
Act 12:8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
________________________________________
Luk 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
________________________________________
Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.
____________________________________

StraightAndNarrow · Mar 8, 2006

whatever · Mar 8, 2006

Originally posted by EdSutton:
FTR, No, I've not read more than the briefest excerpts, usually quotes, by Dietrick Bonhoeffer, although I'm aware of him.

As to what, in your words, I "... are objecting to", as well as "where S&N or anyone else used the term,", - this is found on Page 9 in this thread where S&N writes:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The Church has definitely slipped into easy-believerism and cheap grace (My emphasis- Ed) . It's definitely sad to see but it's up to every true Christian to fight this false gospel at every opportunity. Contrary to what most want to believe, being a Christian is not easy and requires perseverence. No I'm not perfect but I'm getting better every day because my role model is perfect.

I also certainly oppose what I call "decisionism" - "Just make a decision", and any of this approach is too much, IMO. And the "repeat after me prayers" are an example of this. This has nothing to do with the gospel; "Ask Christ into your life" has nothing to do with it; "Make Jesus Lord of your life"; and on and on we can go.
[/QUOTE]OK, I missed that post by S&N. Sorry.

EdSutton · Mar 9, 2006

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John of Japan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The fact that all the scripture I quoted is addressed to saved people is exactly the point. The Bible is saying that someone who was converted sometime in the past (say 30 years ago) still must live a Christian life. Otherwise:

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I'm not sure what the importance is of having the word "gospel" in the verse.

StraightAndNarrow, if you will kindly read back through the thread, my argument all along has been that the doctrine of Lordship Salvation deals with the moment of salvation. Therefore it is imperative what you proclaim to the sinner. If you truly believe in Lordship Salvation, meaning committment to Christ as Lord at the moment of salvation IN ORDER TO RECEIVE SALVATION, then you had better proclaim that as part of your Gospel. Therefore the fact that your verses are not about the Gospel has everything to do with my position, especially in light of the view that you said my Gospel was a false Gospel.

I do not deny that there will be either Christian growth and dedication in a believer's life, or there will be chastening from the Lord. This is because he is regenerated, born again, changed by the Holy Spirit. But what happens after or as a result of salvation has never been my point in this entire thread.

Concerning the verse you quote above, once again it is speaking to believers, not people who need to get saved, as you yourself note. Ernest Pickering says, "It should be noted that these exhortations are in the active voice, ( Lordship Salvation, p. 6; emphasis in the original) Thus, this passage teaches what I and others have been saying all along: a saved person needs to dedicate himself to the Lord.

[/QUOTE]Once again, I agree with you but not with your concluion. Jesus command IS an onging requirement not a momentary promise. "Follow Me" IS His requirement for salvation. I am talking about the gospel according to JESUS. This says that those who make a one-time decision without following it up with an earnest attempt to 'Follow Him" ARE NOT SAVED. I understand what you've been saying. I just don't agree with it. Are you tying to argue that the LORD isn't stating the gospel in this passage? This isn't the only place where he proclaims the requirement for savation. Here are the others I found:

Jesus Said Follow Me
________________________________________
Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
________________________________________
Mat 8:19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
________________________________________

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
________________________________________
Mat 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.
________________________________________
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
________________________________________
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
________________________________________
Mar 2:14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the [son] of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.
________________________________________
Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
________________________________________
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
________________________________________
Luk 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.
________________________________________
Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
________________________________________
Luk 9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain [man] said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
________________________________________
Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
________________________________________
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
________________________________________
Jhn 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
________________________________________
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
________________________________________
Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
________________________________________
Jhn 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
________________________________________
Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
________________________________________
Act 12:8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
________________________________________
Luk 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
________________________________________
Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.
____________________________________ [/QUOTE]I take exception to your describing Jesus' offer of salvation as " a momentary promise".

Virtually every verse you have here cited is clearly referring to one who is already a believer, and the subject is discipleship, not salvation for eternal life. And I actually fail to find one mention of the words eternal life or salvation. I'm curious how you fail to notice that at least two of these (John 13:36, which is a reference to how Peter will die; and Acts 12:8, where the angel was Peter's "Get Out of Jail, Free" card) are not even remotely connected to ANY idea of eternal salvation or even discipleship.
Also I wonder if there is some significance to the fact that you quoted John 10:27 but failed to continue with the thought as it continues into verses 28, 29, and 30.

Since you obviously didn't realize this, and since I am in such a good mood, having just eaten my supper, I shall help you, in order to save you from having to look it up.

(Although I do still encourage ANYONE and EVERYONE to "Search the Scriptures daily, to see if the things said were so."): (John 10:27-30, NKJV)

" 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”"

Another passage that has a bearing on this is found in Ephesians 1:12-14- viz.
"12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Seems pretty clear to me, as I think a 'gift' is usually a one time proffer, I'm fairly sure "eternal" means not ever ending, and I'm pretty sure I come somewhere under the category of "anyone" and/or "no one". If this is what is said, and it is, not even I/we are able to snatch ourselves out of the Father's hand, the Son's hand, and I'm pretty sure I'm not powerful enough to break the seal of the Holy Spirit, either, not to mention that The Holy Spirit, himself, is the 'earnest money' to the Father.

A final passage that speaks to this, is found in John 5:24: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

Didja notice? The "gospel according to Jesus" has a three-fold assurance and certainty, past, present, AND future. This is for the one who hears and believes in Him who sent Me. This one -

1.) present - has everlasting life;
2.) future - shall not come into judgment, but...;
3.) Past - has passed from death into life.

And that, boys and girls, is the message of "the gospel according to Jesus"!!

Uh- oh yeah! One more thing! You wrote:

"I understand what you've been saying. I just don't agree with it. Are you tying to argue that the LORD isn't stating the gospel in this passage? This isn't the only place where he proclaims the requirement for savation. "

Same question for you!

In His grace,
Ed

John of Japan · Mar 9, 2006

Well said, Ed.

I don't think I have much to add except that I've given up asking S&N for a definition of the Gospel. I've asked politely twice, and I never get anything but a bunch of verses addressed to believers, and the ever-nebulous phrase "gospel according to Jesus." To me this is a crucial point, but no defender of LS wants to answer it. I have given a clear definition of the Gospel based on Scripture. So, anyone, what is the LS Gospel?

Faith alone · Mar 9, 2006

Yes, well said, Ed.

A final passage that speaks to this, is found in John 5:24: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

Didja notice? The "gospel according to Jesus" has a three-fold assurance and certainty, past, present, AND future. This is for the one who hears and believes in Him who sent Me. This one -

1.) present - has everlasting life;
2.) future - shall not come into judgment, but...;
3.) Past - has passed from death into life.

And that, boys and girls, is the message of "the gospel according to Jesus"!!

Uh, nice little dig about MacArthur's book.

One comment. The Greek translated "passed" has the idea of "crossed over."

METABEBHKEN is perfect tense of METABAINW - to pass from one place or state into another. In this case, out of spiritual death into spiritual life. Also it says here that we will NOT come into judgement (KRISIN). Pretty clear to me.

The koine Greek perfect tense has no real corresponding tense in English and refers to an act occuring at a point-in-time in the past with a resulting state in the present. IOW, we remain in a state of having crossed over from death into life - and that occured when we trusted in Christ.

Also the conjunction used is the strong one (ALLA) - "...does not come into judgment BUT has crossed over out of death into life."

Thx,

FA

EdSutton · Mar 9, 2006

Originally posted by whatever:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JackRUS:
Whatever.
I don't understand this statement of yours in light of Scripture:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm not sure why you think I am annoyed. Dumbfounded might be a better adjective. Why you would choose Lot, whom the Bible does not tell us to emulate, when you could choose from so many others who the Bible does tell us to emulate, is beyond me.

That was certainly not Peter's take on Lot.

"And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their
unlawful deeds
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" 2 Pet. 2:7-9

And why do you suppose that God sent Jesus and two angels in Genesis 18-19 to deliver Lot out of Sodom if he was so bad as you suppose? [/QUOTE]Oh yeah? Well why do you think God sent three angels to Abraham but only two to Lot?

Sorry, just kidding about that.

I was just going by what Genesis says about Lot's character, especially chapter 19. What kind of man offers his daughters to be raped? What kind of man argues with the angels who have come to rescue him? Where did the Moabites and Ammonites come from? Even his family did not respect him.

I'd say that the best thing about Lot was his God.

To answer your question, I suppose that the reason God sent two angels to rescue Lot was Abraham.

Now here's a question for you - when Abraham was asking for mercy for Sodom why do you suppose he stopped at 10 righteous people? [/QUOTE]

I'd say that the best thing about Lot was his God.

Uh- isn't that, or at least shouldn't that be, the standard for all of us? I know it is "the best thing about" Ed Sutton.

Well why do you think God sent three angels to Abraham but only two to Lot?

Kidding, or no, for whatever reason, there were only four to bring out, as we would see. Four people- four hands on two angels. Also the Biblical concept, principle, and 'type' of two or three witnesses is demonstrate here. One angel could have carried Lot, his wife, and two daughters, 'in one arm', so to speak, with room for another hundred, if I understand Scripture correctly on this.

Now here's a question for you - when Abraham was asking for mercy for Sodom why do you suppose he stopped at 10 righteous people?

I certainly do not know the answer to this, but have at least one hint from Scripture, I believe.
The angels, per se, did not know all about Lot, for they asked about who else he had to bring out from the destruction that was to come. Sons, Daughters, Sons- in -law, etc. Lot apparently had a fair sized family, for he went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters. I believe that in the Hebrew, this is a plural form of three or more, according to what I've read elsewhere. If that in fact, is the case, that would make at least six individuals, here alone, plus Lot, his wife, and two 'youngest' daughters. That is at least ten, possibly more. I might guess, although I certainly do not know this, that Abraham stopped at ten because he knew that he was already well within the number of Lot's family. He knew Lot was a believer, and surely as a believer, his family would be believers, as well, certainly more than the needed ten. Turns out here, he was wrong. I even wonder if Abraham ever knew, that Lot and all his family didn't perish in Sodom? Scripture doesn't say. I believe, as I've stated, that Lot 'saw' the destruction and death of most of his family, like some of us watched with 9/11, or could have 'seen' with the blasts at Hiroshima, or the tsunami, earthquakes, etc.

I believe there is more here than the English language tells us. We have tended to speak of Lot's wife "looking back", and was turned into a pillar of salt. I do not read Hebrew, so do not specifically know, exactly what is covered here, But both the KJV and NKJV which I have easy access to speak of her "looking back (from) behind him (Lot)" Othere translations suggest something further, including ESV and especially YLT. I suggest they are correct, in this idea.

In His grace,
Ed

Is Lordship Salvation a misnomer?

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