is "losing one's faith" a myth?

[The Angel of the South]

My church's Calvinist theology teaches that salvation cannot be lost. God will not withdraw it. I believe this, since--having been in a churchgoing Christian long enough to develop a theological position--my theology is also Calvinist (but not militantly Calvinist). What about losing one's faith?

At some point relatively recently, I thought about all these people who say they "lost their faith." They allegedly lost their faith a long time ago, after a crisis, etc. Is that just as impossible as losing one's salvation? I know faith is of course a different thing from salvation, but they are both a gift from God. As another gift from God, would faith also never be withdrawn?

I am also figuring out that "losing one's faith" may be a smokescreen for something the person does not want to admit: that they simply rebelled. They lost their obedience, not their faith. Am I right?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The go to bible verses on this are usually Matthew 7:15-23. I will also point out the parable of the sower in Matthew 3:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, and Luke 8:4-15. There is such a thing as a false professor of faith, because faith is more than mental assent (James 2:19).

The issue is that faith in the bible means something different than mere belief, something that is surprising to most of us.

A pastor told me it like this: The word "faith" or "believe" in the Greek means something you absolutely trust in and would act on. He told me the story of a man on a tight rope over Niagara falls. No one believed he would survive, he does and asks the crowd if they believe. They say yes, but the man counters by asking who was willing to ride in a wheel barrow across the falls. Belief turned to faithlessness again and no one volunteered.

To approach Jesus without the faith to jump in that wheelbarrow is useless faith. If our faith does not survive the lure of pleasures and the furnace of trial and tribulation it was never real saving faith.

Of course justification and the gift of the Holy Spirit are by faith alone (Romans 3:21-24, Ephesians 1:13).

And of course, we sin even as saved people. Just look at 1 Corinthians where a believer sleeps with his father's wife (1 Corinthians 5:1-5). Paul hands him over to Satan, casting him out of the church, so that he will be saved. There is backsliding, but the redeemed will one day repent and come back into the fold.

In addition, the saved have the Holy Spirit as an eternal deposit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22). This Spirit is at work in us to change us by bearing Spiritual fruit that allows us to fulfill the Law with our lives (Galatians 5:22-23). Because we are new creations through the Spirit (Galatians 6:15, 2 Corinthians 5:17).

 

[MartyF]

You have to ask these people what they lost their faith in. Calvanism? The last 12 verses of Mark? Moral dessert? What?

You have to probe deeper. You have to ask more specific questions of the person in order to find out how to help or if you can help through anything more than prayer.

Marty

Addendum.

I have found that very rarely do people lose their faith in everything they believed in. They tend to lose faith only in parts.

 

[Yeshua1]

My church's Calvinist theology teaches that salvation cannot be lost. God will not withdraw it. I believe this, since--having been in a churchgoing Christian long enough to develop a theological position--my theology is also Calvinist (but not militantly Calvinist). What about losing one's faith?

At some point relatively recently, I thought about all these people who say they "lost their faith." They allegedly lost their faith a long time ago, after a crisis, etc. Is that just as impossible as losing one's salvation? I know faith is of course a different thing from salvation, but they are both a gift from God. As another gift from God, would faith also never be withdrawn?

I am also figuring out that "losing one's faith" may be a smokescreen for something the person does not want to admit: that they simply rebelled. They lost their obedience, not their faith. Am I right?

IF the person has been born again, sealed by the Holy Spirit, then Romans 8:35-39 is in play, as is 2Timothy 2:13!

 

[Esther Thompson]

The Bible means just what it says.

But in light of what it says in the following two verses of the Bible, why do you suppose that the Devil would like for us to believe that it is impossible for us to fall away from our own stedfastness?

1 Timothy 4:4
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

2 Peter 3:17
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

But then many Christians try to say it is because they were not real Christians to start with then.


This is referring to False Teachers who lure People away from the Truth that they once held to...

2 Peter 2:18-22
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Bible means just what it says.

But in light of what it says in the following two verses of the Bible, why do you suppose that the Devil would like for us to believe that it is impossible for us to fall away from our own stedfastness?

1 Timothy 4:4
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

2 Peter 3:17
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

But then many Christians try to say it is because they were not real Christians to start with then.


This is referring to False Teachers who lure People away from the Truth that they once held to...

2 Peter 2:18-22
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

True and genuine Christian can never be lost, for the same God that saves them shall make sure to get them unto the end still saved, Romans 8 and Philippians 2:13!

 

[Esther Thompson]

True and genuine Christian can never be lost, for the same God that saves them shall make sure to get them unto the end still saved, Romans 8 and Philippians 2:13!

You sure do have to outright ignore a whole lot of Bible passages and verses to come to that conclusion.

Why do you think that God gives us all the warnings?

Do you remember Peter and why the cock crowed three times? He did not think that he could possibly deny Jesus, right? He thought that other men might do that, but not HIM. A little bit arrogant, wasn't he?

And that was the very thing that caused him to fall.

2 Peter 3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Do you remember that Jesus had told Peter When you are convertedf"? This means that he was not yet converted when he had that arrogant attitude that he could never fall or be lost.

Just before the fall of Peter, Jesus had said to him, “Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” Luke 22:31, 32.

There is no reason for Satan to try to tempt us if he knows that we cannot be lost.

God bids us beware. “Werefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.” 1 Corinthians 10:12

 

[Esther Thompson]

Now read it in context, Fod is talking to US.

Plainly, God tells us that the People of God were OVERTHROWN and some DESTROYED Iin the wilderness, and God is telling us to make SURE the same doesn't happen TO US.

Why would be it "written for our admonition" if it were impossible for the same thing to even happen to US?

Corinthians 10:5-12
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Logic.

 

[Yeshua1]

You sure do have to outright ignore a whole lot of Bible passages and verses to come to that conclusion.

Why do you think that God gives us all the warnings?

Do you remember Peter and why the cock crowed three times? He did not think that he could possibly deny Jesus, right? He thought that other men might do that, but not HIM. A little bit arrogant, wasn't he?

And that was the very thing that caused him to fall.

2 Peter 3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Do you remember that Jesus had told Peter When you are convertedf"? This means that he was not yet converted when he had that arrogant attitude that he could never fall or be lost.

Just before the fall of Peter, Jesus had said to him, “Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” Luke 22:31, 32.

There is no reason for Satan to try to tempt us if he knows that we cannot be lost.

God bids us beware. “Werefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.” 1 Corinthians 10:12

John 6:39-40 proves that my understanding is the biblical one, and yours is not!

 

[Esther Thompson]

John 6:39-40 proves that my understanding is the biblical one, and yours is not!

There is God's will, and what He wishes for us. Then there is what God wills for us to do.

If we fail to do what He wants for us to do, then we frustrate His will for us. Because we still have our own choices to make. It is just that simple.

You confuse what God wants to have happen with us, with the fact that we determine, by our own action, what WILL happen with us, in the end.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


John Chapter 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew Chapter 7
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

 

[Yeshua1]

There is God's will, and what He wishes for us. Then there is what God wills for us to do.

If we fail to do what He wants for us to do, then we frustrate His will for us. Because we still have our own choices to make. It is just that simple.

You confuse what God wants to have happen with us, with the fact that we determine, by our own action, what WILL happen with us, in the end.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


John Chapter 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew Chapter 7
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Paul in Romans 9 disagrees with you, for how can the clay decide to tell its maker that I will stop you from making me what you want to?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

John 6:39-40 proves that my understanding is the biblical one, and yours is not!

There is God's will, and what He wishes for us. Then there is what God wills for us to do.

Who frustrates God's will? John 6:39 is preceded by John 6:37. 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.'

That there are those who walk away from the faith after a while is true and spoken of in the Parable of the Sower. But it is evident that such people never belonged to Christ. "And I will declare to them, "I never knew you!" Not, "I knew you once and then forgot about you."

'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that it might be made manifest that none of them were of us' (1 John 2:19).

 

[Yeshua1]

Who frustrates God's will? John 6:39 is preceded by John 6:37. 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.'

That there are those who walk away from the faith after a while is true and spoken of in the Parable of the Sower. But it is evident that such people never belonged to Christ. "And I will declare to them, "I never knew you!" Not, "I knew you once and then forgot about you."

'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that it might be made manifest that none of them were of us' (1 John 2:19).

Reminds me of a story that Luther reportedly said i his day. he said that one night the Devil knocked at his door, and told him that he would be taking Him to Hell now, as he would cut off both of his arms off Christ, and Martin replied back that was OK, as the 2 arms of Jesus still held him tight.

 

[The Angel of the South]

I disagree not with any of the particular theological viewpoints stated here, but with some of the rhetoric. Accusing each other of ignoring Bible passages and especially "proves that my understanding is the biblical one, and yours is not." The latter is unnecessarily strident--to the point of obnoxiousness, in my opinion. I may be a predestination-affirming Calvinist, but have for a long time been bothered by the heavy-handedness of strong(er) Calvinists. Although the NT unequivocally says God predestines for salvation, it does not fully explain predestination the way it spells out key doctrines; and it gives us no reason to believe that those who remain under the Arminian misconception are not saved. So I have very little interest in debating predestination (only noting the Bible verses that affirm it), or in assuring Arminians "I'm right, you're wrong."

 

[The Angel of the South]

That there are those who walk away from the faith after a while is true and spoken of in the Parable of the Sower. But it is evident that such people never belonged to Christ.

That's only clear after they're dead. Inherent in once-saved-always-saved is the certainty that if a saved person (not a hypocrite) walks away from the Lord, they will necessarily return, at some future time which only He knows. The assistant pastor who baptized me is probably an example of this. He said in adolescence, he rebelled by saying "no" when he felt God calling him to ministry. His life was marked by failures for years after that, until he returned to God many years later and assumed his proper calling. Assuming he had already been born again at the time he rebelled (I admit he hasn't specified), it was predestined that he would repent and return to God.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's only clear after they're dead. Inherent in once

I disagree not with any of the particular theological viewpoints stated here, but with some of the rhetoric. Accusing each other of ignoring Bible passages and especially "proves that my understanding is the biblical one, and yours is not." The latter is unnecessarily strident--to the point of obnoxiousness, in my opinion. I may be a predestination-affirming Calvinist, but have for a long time been bothered by the heavy-handedness of strong(er) Calvinists. Although the NT unequivocally says God predestines for salvation, it does not fully explain predestination the way it spells out key doctrines; and it gives us no reason to believe that those who remain under the Arminian misconception are not saved. So I have very little interest in debating predestination (only noting the Bible verses that affirm it), or in assuring Arminians "I'm right, you're wrong."

saved-always-saved is the certainty that if a saved person (not a hypocrite) walks away from the Lord, they will necessarily return, at some future time which only He knows. The assistant pastor who baptized me is probably an example of this. He said in adolescence, he rebelled by saying "no" when he felt God calling him to ministry. His life was marked by failures for years after that, until he returned to God many years later and assumed his proper calling. Assuming he had already been born again at the time he rebelled (I admit he hasn't specified), it was predestined that he would repent and return to God.

It can get pretty heated on both sides of the aisle on these kind of questions, as some Calvinists like myself do see at times some posting on election/predestination questions replies that almost seem like Calvinism is a false, not another way, to view the scriptures!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That's only clear after they're dead.

Oh, for sure; and maybe not even then. I would never lose hope for unsaved loved ones. However, if one of the Lord's sheep becomes a lost sheep. the Good Shepherd will leave the ninety and nine and go and find it. But if He doesn't, the only explanation is that the sheep was not one of the Lord's.

 

[Yeshua1]

Oh, for sure; and maybe not even then. I would never lose hope for unsaved loved ones. However, if one of the Lord's sheep becomes a lost sheep. the Good Shepherd will leave the ninety and nine and go and find it. But if He doesn't, the only explanation is that the sheep was not one of the Lord's.

And if that ever really happened, then Jesus Christ was not able to keep unto the end those whom the Father gave to Him, but that would mean that God was reduced to being weaker than His creature...

 

[The Angel of the South]

I feel it necessary to explain my negative reaction to strident Calvinist/Arminian debate, by explaining that I simply didn't give care to which sub-forum I posted this thread in. It honestly should have gone in a general Christian sub-forum (which I probably hadn't seen), because it wasn't intended to be a Baptist-focused question.

 

[Yeshua1]

I feel it necessary to explain my negative reaction to strident Calvinist/Arminian debate, by explaining that I simply didn't give care to which sub-forum I posted this thread in. It honestly should have gone in a general Christian sub-forum (which I probably hadn't seen), because it wasn't intended to be a Baptist-focused question.

I think thatJohn Calvin and John wesley are still having their discussions regarding their positions!