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Is Man a Free Moral Agent?
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
KenH
Well-Known Member
And yet still, Bob, you still have God whom you claim loves everybody(and not just the few that you claim Calvinism teaches) still only saving only the few that are smart enough, wise enough, lucky enough, whatever, to choose to repent and believe, while roasting practically all of the human beings He created in hell because they were not as smart, or wise, or lucky, or whatever, as you.
That's really good news you have to share there, Bob, really good news.
Ken
Ray Berrian
New Member
In Genesis 3:3 God laid down His law for those in the Garden. If Adam and Eve did not have the option to 'eat or not to eat' then the Lord not have had the leverage to cause the Fall of humankind. He told them not to eat in both verse one and three. If they were not given the option 'not to eat' then we find God offering a foolish statement by saying, 'Ye shall not touch or eat of the fruit in the midst of the Garden. Then there would only have been the path that led them to partake of the forbidden fruit.
God did not ordain the Fall of Man; He gave the first couple the distinct option to obey or disobey His righteous edict.
When they ate of the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve set in motion their free will and Almighty God took action because of their rebellious ways.
God did not ordain the Fall of Man; He gave the first couple the distinct option to obey or disobey His righteous edict.
When they ate of the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve set in motion their free will and Almighty God took action because of their rebellious ways.
Primitive Baptist
New Member
Either God was willing, not willing, or indifferent concerning the fall. That is all I'm going to say at the moment.
ScottEmerson
Active Member
We have no record of God saying not to touch it. We only have Eve saying so.
Ken</font>[/QUOTE]But wouldn't Eve had been lying if she was saying something that God had never said? That gives us several theological conundrums. She was in a pure state until she partook of the fruit. Can we not agree that she was correct in that God said, "You won't eat of the tree?"
Bob,
Just out of curiosity.
Are there any Calvinists in your denomination?
Just out of curiosity.
Are there any Calvinists in your denomination?
Bob, You wrote:
"#1. IT can't be supported by scripture (5pt Calvinism that is) as scripture states "God so loved the WORLD", Christ is "The Atoning sacrifice for Our sins and not our sins only but those of the Whole World", "God is not Willing for ANY to Perish", ...etc"
This is your belief and your interpretation. Many disagree with you and have throughout Christian history. I simply am one of the many who disagrees with you.
#2. You have already seen my post on this thread of the Arminian "future" as predicted by the Doctrines of Grace in The Arminian model.
Both of Your Models are woefully lacking and can only be categorized as imaginative fiction. If either of your models were correct then heaven would not be heaven and God would not be God.
BTW - You have never answered my question.
If you could have said No When You said Yes to Jesus why didn't you?
Deep in your heart you know at that moment when you personally said yes - You couldn't have said no.
"#1. IT can't be supported by scripture (5pt Calvinism that is) as scripture states "God so loved the WORLD", Christ is "The Atoning sacrifice for Our sins and not our sins only but those of the Whole World", "God is not Willing for ANY to Perish", ...etc"
This is your belief and your interpretation. Many disagree with you and have throughout Christian history. I simply am one of the many who disagrees with you.
#2. You have already seen my post on this thread of the Arminian "future" as predicted by the Doctrines of Grace in The Arminian model.
Both of Your Models are woefully lacking and can only be categorized as imaginative fiction. If either of your models were correct then heaven would not be heaven and God would not be God.
BTW - You have never answered my question.
If you could have said No When You said Yes to Jesus why didn't you?
Deep in your heart you know at that moment when you personally said yes - You couldn't have said no.
Ray Berrian
New Member
'We have no record of God saying not to touch it. We only have Eve saying so.'
While it is true that God did not record His own statement, He did make it a matter of record of His law that neither Adam or Eve should touch the fruit. 'But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the Garden, GOD HATH SAID, ye shall not eat of it, NEITHER SHALL YE TOUCH IT, lest ye die.' [Genesis 3:3b]
God's intention was so intense, that He wanted them to stay totally away from even the temptation of yielding to the forbidden fruit.
Are we correct that Calvinists believe that God not only ordained the Fall but nudged them along in their proclivity to yield to the temptation? When approaching the tree they would see the beauty of the fruit and by touching it there would also be the related temptation to partake of the forbidden fruit.
While it is true that God did not record His own statement, He did make it a matter of record of His law that neither Adam or Eve should touch the fruit. 'But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the Garden, GOD HATH SAID, ye shall not eat of it, NEITHER SHALL YE TOUCH IT, lest ye die.' [Genesis 3:3b]
God's intention was so intense, that He wanted them to stay totally away from even the temptation of yielding to the forbidden fruit.
Are we correct that Calvinists believe that God not only ordained the Fall but nudged them along in their proclivity to yield to the temptation? When approaching the tree they would see the beauty of the fruit and by touching it there would also be the related temptation to partake of the forbidden fruit.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Hardsheller said,
Many are brought to that point and say no! That is why there are so many down and outers. They made the wrong choice at the right time! They are subsequently made aware of their future and it is a spiritually crushing reality. They cannot handle their choice so they take up slow suicide instead of pleading for another opportunity.
Thank God, my God is the God of second chances! Thank God I am redeemed through a second trip to the alter of Salvation. Thank God he was there to meet me, just as he was the first time!
Hardsheller, you can keep your false religion! I'll have none of it!
What a rose colored myth that is!
Many are brought to that point and say no! That is why there are so many down and outers. They made the wrong choice at the right time! They are subsequently made aware of their future and it is a spiritually crushing reality. They cannot handle their choice so they take up slow suicide instead of pleading for another opportunity.
Thank God, my God is the God of second chances! Thank God I am redeemed through a second trip to the alter of Salvation. Thank God he was there to meet me, just as he was the first time!
Hardsheller, you can keep your false religion! I'll have none of it!
What a rose colored myth that is!
Many are brought to that point and say no! That is why there are so many down and outers. They made the wrong choice at the right time! They are subsequently made aware of their future and it is a spiritually crushing reality. They cannot handle their choice so they take up slow suicide instead of pleading for another opportunity.
Thank God, my God is the God of second chances! Thank God I am redeemed through a second trip to the alter of Salvation. Thank God he was there to meet me, just as he was the first time!
Hardsheller, you can keep your false religion! I'll have none of it!</font>[/QUOTE]You really don't understand do you? You have absolutely no concept of what I'm talking about.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
In case you are having difficulty keeping up, this is what you posted to which I replied as I did that this is a rose colored myth.