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Is Mark 16:17-20 for today?
- Thread starter luke1616
- Start date
charles_creech78
New Member
I was just wondering! Can we all not handle a snake or a serpent and not be harmed? All serpent are not poisonous. This is just why I believe he is talking about the devil. The devil is harming a lot of people. I don't believe he can harm a child of God. Paul was a child of God. In his case I believe he was talking about a viper. But in mark the devil.
I think it is based, for most cessationists, on the passages and logic I enunciated on the previous page.
Caution here-----Jesus told Peter that Satan was going to "sift" him "like wheat"----another caution---2Cor 12:7 speaks of a messenager from Satan sent to buffett
He seeks whom he may devour
Roaring Lion
You walk right into his trap when you believe he can do no harm
"They shall take up snakes". What is it in the Greek translation ? Anyone have that? Just my opinion but I believe it is similar to the statement "He picked up a cold". That might be a stretch but believers doing signs do not do them to prove anything.The purpose of healing or casting out devils is love. The act of picking up a poisonous snake on purpose to prove it won't harm you would be testing God, where one biting you out of the blue is a different story.
From :Essential Guide To Bible Versions by Philip W.Comfort.
"The textual evidence for the first reading (stopping at verse 8) is the best,finding witness from thetwo earliest manuscripts,as well as other manuscripts. Of the church fathers,Clement,Origen,Cyprian,and Cyril of Jerusalem show no knowledge of any verses beyond 16:8. Eusbius said that the accurate copies of Mark ended with verse 8,adding that 16:9-20 were missing from almost all manuscripts (Quaestiones ad Marinum 1.22,937). Jerome affirmed the same by saying that almost all the Greek codices did not have 16:9-20 (Epistle 120.3,ad Hedibiam). Several manuscripts (1,20,22,137,138,1110,1215,1216,1217,1221,1582) that include 16:9-20 have scholia (marginal notes) indicating that the more ancient manuscripts do not include this section. Other manuscripts mark off the longer reading with obeli (asterisks) to indicate its questionable status. The textual evidence,therefore,shows that Mark's Gospel circulated in many ancient copies with an ending at verse 8.
But this ending seemed to be too abrupt (and negative) for many readers,both ancient and modern. As a result,various endings were appended --both short and long,with a combination of the two. The most well-known ending is the longer,tradtional ending of 16:9-20. The earliest witnesses to this ending come from Irenaeus and Tatian's Diatessaron. Thus, this ending was probably in circulation in the second century. According to Kurt Aland, the shorter and longer endings were composed independently in differentl geographical locations, and both readings were probably circulating in the second century. The longer reading became the most popular of the endings after the fourth century,and was copied again and again in many uncial manuscripts.
Scholarly consensus is that Mark did not write any of the endings that appear after 16:8;all are the work of other hands. Various readers, bothered that Mark ended so abruptly (or that the last portion was lost), completed the Gospel with an addendum. None of these endings is stylistically congruous with Mark's style,and none readily follows 16:8 (note the inconsistency between 16:8 and 16:9 in the trational longer ending). Even though the composer of the trational longer ending borrowed some material from the other Gospels and the book of Acts,some other elements (i.e., concerning divine protection for drinking poison and handling snakes) must not be considered as promises Jesus gave to the believers." (pages 254,255)
"The textual evidence for the first reading (stopping at verse 8) is the best,finding witness from thetwo earliest manuscripts,as well as other manuscripts. Of the church fathers,Clement,Origen,Cyprian,and Cyril of Jerusalem show no knowledge of any verses beyond 16:8. Eusbius said that the accurate copies of Mark ended with verse 8,adding that 16:9-20 were missing from almost all manuscripts (Quaestiones ad Marinum 1.22,937). Jerome affirmed the same by saying that almost all the Greek codices did not have 16:9-20 (Epistle 120.3,ad Hedibiam). Several manuscripts (1,20,22,137,138,1110,1215,1216,1217,1221,1582) that include 16:9-20 have scholia (marginal notes) indicating that the more ancient manuscripts do not include this section. Other manuscripts mark off the longer reading with obeli (asterisks) to indicate its questionable status. The textual evidence,therefore,shows that Mark's Gospel circulated in many ancient copies with an ending at verse 8.
But this ending seemed to be too abrupt (and negative) for many readers,both ancient and modern. As a result,various endings were appended --both short and long,with a combination of the two. The most well-known ending is the longer,tradtional ending of 16:9-20. The earliest witnesses to this ending come from Irenaeus and Tatian's Diatessaron. Thus, this ending was probably in circulation in the second century. According to Kurt Aland, the shorter and longer endings were composed independently in differentl geographical locations, and both readings were probably circulating in the second century. The longer reading became the most popular of the endings after the fourth century,and was copied again and again in many uncial manuscripts.
Scholarly consensus is that Mark did not write any of the endings that appear after 16:8;all are the work of other hands. Various readers, bothered that Mark ended so abruptly (or that the last portion was lost), completed the Gospel with an addendum. None of these endings is stylistically congruous with Mark's style,and none readily follows 16:8 (note the inconsistency between 16:8 and 16:9 in the trational longer ending). Even though the composer of the trational longer ending borrowed some material from the other Gospels and the book of Acts,some other elements (i.e., concerning divine protection for drinking poison and handling snakes) must not be considered as promises Jesus gave to the believers." (pages 254,255)
Interesting study, thank you for taking the time Rippon. Sometimes, I look at it like this. What happens if 9-20 is not supposed to be there? We have a story of a young man telling 3 people Jesus is risen, and to go tell the others He is risen, and He will meet them, the end. What else happens? What's the instructions?We are not challenged to do anything...... What happens if 9-20 belong? The story is finished with Jesus appearing to the rest, and giving a description of believers, and are told what believers are to do and will do. It even gives warning to unbelievers. Some people do not want 9-20 included because it challenges them, it questions their belief, it will test their faith. They fear if they do not do signs, they are unbelievers and will be damned. NOT SO! We are all GROWING in Christ. It is much easier for people to tell a story about Jesus, than it is to move a mountain in Jesus' name.
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If a word or phrase is changed in a text in the various 5500 Greek manuscripts, we assume an addition (usually) or deletion or scribal mistake.
If a whole section is changed or (worse) is missing or parts missing or verses of it missing et al, it almost always indicates a personal addition by an editor.
The ending to Mark varies greatly in various manuscripts. Nothing like it in the rest of the NT. Peter's sermon ended. Various folks didn't like it to end so abruptly so added a bit. Others added a bit more. Others many verses more. Until we get the cobbled up ending in some texts.
The errors and so-called prophetic words (verified in Acts as Mark was written AFTER these events so it is really historical commentary) are best not to be added at all. I will stick with what Peter said and not the man-made additions.
If a whole section is changed or (worse) is missing or parts missing or verses of it missing et al, it almost always indicates a personal addition by an editor.
The ending to Mark varies greatly in various manuscripts. Nothing like it in the rest of the NT. Peter's sermon ended. Various folks didn't like it to end so abruptly so added a bit. Others added a bit more. Others many verses more. Until we get the cobbled up ending in some texts.
The errors and so-called prophetic words (verified in Acts as Mark was written AFTER these events so it is really historical commentary) are best not to be added at all. I will stick with what Peter said and not the man-made additions.
charles_creech78
New Member
First of all finish reading the verse that you gave me! Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Peter was not fully converted yet. I don't believe in backsliding like some. I believe to the saving of my soul and that he is able to keep me. 2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. This thorn is to humble us not to harm us. Look at Job Satan could not harm him . He can take all that you have but he cannot take your life which is in Jesus Christ the Lord. Are you saying the devil has more power than God? Jesus said I have lost non that the father has given me. But the son of perdition which was Judas Iscariot.Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost[/COLOR], but the son of perdition;(Judas Iscariot) that the scripture might be fulfilled. [/COLOR] God be for us who can be against us! Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. For surely I am also persuaded! God bless.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I have struggled with this coming from KJVO camps so much that you wouldn't probably know. Maybe some do.
I am glad to be away from the guilt trip, and to be studying Scriptures in light of God, not man, and beginning to grasp a little understanding of Sovereignty and other doctrines.
Thanks for the explanation.
That is absolutely false. Could you provide scripture, please?
Jesus said that He did the miracles so that people would know He "has the power to forgive sins." The Old Testament confirms that new revelation must be accompanied by signs. The Greek word MEANS "sign"...it is something specifically done to confirm revelation.
One of the biggest problems I have with the charismaniac movement, is that Jesus clearly condemned people who were always looking for miracles. He said it is a "wicked and adulterous generation (non specific)" that is always seeking after signs.
charles_creech78
New Member
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Jesus open the eyes of the blind. cleanse the lepers the deaf hear and he raised the dead. All these works he did! He also said this and blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. I believe it is sign to them that don't believe. You think about it he did all this and some still did not believe. Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. Just as they did in the day of Christ so will they do in this adulterous generation. He did all this before them and still they called him a devil and still did not believe. With there eyes they seen and yet don't believe. How much more will they believe today. Open the eyes of the blind, cleanse the lepers the deaf hear and raised the dead. Do all of this in the name of Christ and they call you the devils! Just like they did to Jesus. Jesus said they have persecute me they shall also persecute you. Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. I have seen it on some of the post! If you die and go to hell it is because you don't believe! This adulterous generation seeks a sign! That sign has been given and it is Jesus Christ and they still don't believe. God bless.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. Just as they did in the day of Christ so will they do in this adulterous generation. He did all this before them and still they called him a devil and still did not believe. With there eyes they seen and yet don't believe. How much more will they believe today. Open the eyes of the blind, cleanse the lepers the deaf hear and raised the dead. Do all of this in the name of Christ and they call you the devils! Just like they did to Jesus. Jesus said they have persecute me they shall also persecute you. Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. I have seen it on some of the post! If you die and go to hell it is because you don't believe! This adulterous generation seeks a sign! That sign has been given and it is Jesus Christ and they still don't believe. God bless.
preacher4truth
Active Member
People will die and go to hell because they don't believe the stories of people who say they heal?
So we should believe all the reports of televangelists, and these on here too, to escape hell?
OK. That's not the gospel.
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charles_creech78
New Member
Did I say that? What I am saying is just because they do the work of Jesus Christ does not mean they are the devil is my point! I never said because they don't believe in them they are going to hell. Not believing in the work of God will send you to hell. The work of God is Jesus Christ. Go back and read what I said. I gave you scripture of what Jesus Christ did and what would follow his people who believed. They done all they did to him and still would not believe. They are doing the same to the people of the true and living God today and that is my point. Just because you see a man doing sign and wonders and spiritual gifts of healing does not make him a false prophets. People speak evil of things they no not of and speak evil against the truth. This world is gotten to the point if you do wrong it is okay but if you do good it is evil. Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. Go read about the false prophets and what the first thing Jesus said to his disciples when they asked him about the end of times. We all need to take heed! Time is surely at hand.
Wow, that part about "woe to you when men speak well of you." Forgot about that. Thanks. Almost on the flip side"If you are not being persecuted...."
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yes, it was your implication at the very least:
I know some people believe it that much. Some people preach it this way. If it's what one believes it is just what it is. You've alluded to miracles and healings as signs to believe, but that was limited to Gospel preaching prior to Pentecost. This is not the Gospel. At all. The Gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-8.
Let me show it to you like this: Let's say you are preaching healing, miracles, and signs. You expect to draw crowds, and you will. You expect excitement, and energy and feeling (which does not prove it is from God by the way).
Now, change the message to the Cross, and the Gospel, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You most likely won't draw crowds. Why? Because it is offensive to the lost. The preaching of the cross is an offense, which is why people insert excitement (false healings such as televangelists have been convicted of) and leave out the Spirit and His power to convince persons, as in 1 Corinthians 2, and don't depend on His message.
Now, let's say you have some come forward, if you will, at Gospel preaching, you will see one who responds to this come away with new life, made alive, wherein the person was dead, and seeing, wherein he was blind. Then this person loves God, for healing him from his sins, now he is toting a Bible and has a new song, being cleansed and made holy. That is the power of God. Check Romans 1:16.
Just due to the fact someone does miracles and wonders in Jesus' name does not necessarily authenticate it being from Him or of Him whatsoever. Matthew 7:22. The devil does the same things. He is a counterfeiter.
Healing and miracles, prosperity and riches that often go along with it are fleshly, worldly desires. Leaving one out for the other is the same thing as having both together friend. The Gospel, on the other hand, is spiritual, and that is what people need to hear, for it is the message we are to preach to a lost world.
Now if they don't believe the Gospel, they then will not escape hell.
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Awesome, very encouraging.:jesus::thumbs::godisgood:
charles_creech78
New Member
If you think that was my implication then I am sorry! That was surely not my implication. I am sorry you feel that way. God bless you!
charles_creech78
New Member
preacher4truth the post on 74! You under lined what I said and left the end of what I said out. This is what I said at the end:That sign has been given and it is Jesus Christ and they still don't believe I did not say they are going to hell because they don't believe the people who cast out devil or do sign or wonder but because they don't believe in Jesus and his work that he did and still does. Your quote at the end of your post I did not say! I said they will go to hell because they don't believe You said they will not escape hell they can escape hell if they only believe on him who he sent. If you got me all wrong then that is your understanding. It seems like your the only one who did! (This is your quote preach4truth: Just due to the fact someone does miracles and wonders in Jesus' name does not necessarily authenticate it being from Him or of Him whatsoever. Matthew 7:22. The devil does the same things. He is a counterfeiter. ) My point is that just because a man can do stuff like this does not mean he is the devil. Jesus did all this and they cast there snares on him and called him a devil. How do you counter fit something? You try to make it as close as you can to the real thing. If the real thing can do all this then how do you know which one is real? So let me ask you something preacher4truth how can you tell who is good or who is evil if they look the same and are doing the same things? How can you tell it is the devil or of God ? Let say you know a man who was blind from birth and a man walked up and said open thy eyes in the name of Jesus Christ and his eyes open. How do you know if that man is from God or the devil? Let us get deeper in the word of God brother. Let us say a man was full of the holy Ghost and he healed someone and done signs and wonder like Jesus. And people cast there snares on him like they did Jesus and call him a devil. What is blaspheme? Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mar 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean. spirit. Well last time I check the devil was a unclean spirit and to call someone a devil is not a wise thing to do. Not that you did! But we know the spirit because it is a witness for our spirit that it is the truth and no man needs to teach us that for it is truth. The true gospel that is preach is love: If it is not of love then it is not the gospel and if we are not showing it with each other then it is not of God. Everyone that is born of God is born of love! Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Let me put it this way and see if you read my post. If a man is talked evil of in the name of the Lord and a man is talked good of in the name of the Lord which one of them is from GOD? Which ones false and which one is true? Like I said before this generation is like all the rest but more evil. If you do good your evil and if you do evil your good. But like Jesus said: Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. God bless
preacher4truth
Active Member
So you're saying you can't see how what you said can be seen in the light of how I saw it? It was definitely lending itself to that.
At least you admit people don't have to believe in the charismatic signs and wonders hoopla to be saved.
:thumbs: