Is Mary the second Eve?

[DanPC]

"Please show me the verse that says that I explicitly sinned."

I wouldn't claim that the bible explicitly says you sinned like DHK claimed for Mary. I can agree that there is an argument for it (though there is a countering one) but that is not the same thing as saying that the Bible says something explicitly that it does not.

"But ther is an answer: the feral headship of Adam. All sinned in him."

Does this mean you accept the concept of original sin and that baptism is needed to wash one of that sin? Babies are unable to commit an actual sin. I would agree that they are under the stain of original sin but not that they have actually sinned. I didn't know baptists believed in original sin.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by DanPC:

DHK has still not come up with the verses that he said showed Mary explicitly sinned. DHK should retract his statement and say that there is some evidence (not explicit) for his argument.

Numbers 15:32-36
32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Notice the facts about this passage. A man gathered sticks on the Sabbath. He violated the Sabbath Day. He was taken out and stoned to death. There are the facts. What was the man's name. We do not know. It is not necessary to know.

Now we go to a parallel passage in the New Testament.
We find a woman in Luke 2:21-24 bringing her offering, a pair of turtle doves, to sacrifice them to the Lord, according to the law, for the days of her purification are finished. This is done according to the law of every woman who gives birth to a male child. The law is explained in Levitcus chapter 12. So we go there to find out the reason behind the law.
In Leviticus it explains further that one sacrifice was for a burnt offering, and the other was for a sin offering. Mary was offering a sin offering. Like the man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath and was stoned (his name is not mentioned in the O.T.), Mary offered a sin offering (her name not mentioned in the O.T., though it is specifically mentioned in the N.T.). A person only offers a sin offering when they have sinned. A person is stoned when their sin is grievous unto the Lord. Sin is sin. Mary had sinned. Otherwise there would be no need for a sin offering. Sinners need a sin offering.
"All have sinned." Mary needed a Saviour. She admitted she did. Sinners need a Saviour. Those without sin do not. Mary was a sinner. The picture here is very clear in Scripture. Mary was a sinner, offering a sin-offering, calling upon her Saviour to save her from her sin, because of her consciousness of her own sin. What could be more clear than that.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

Jesus took on human form. Why doesn't it apply to him?

If you look at the post that started this thread you would see why b/c CC already asked this.

Neal

 

[Netcurtains3]

"Mary born without sin" - isn't this getting into the realms of "theologic-speak" - I've tried to keep my thoughts free from dogma. Lets try and go with the flow of being ordinary Christians looking at Mary as simple people.

If Mary was an heiress (eg her parents were dead) then she would have to make the decision who she would Marry. In a sense, if Mary did not say "Yes" to God's "implantation" then it would have been a form of rape. To make this sort of decision Mary would need to be, more or less, perfect in that God wouldn't want any doubt whatsoever.

Yeshua has 50%-ish of genetic make-up from Mary.
Mary had Yeshua's blood flowing through her for nine months.
Mary watched her "perfect" baby boy being tortured and killed.

What is sin? Sin is SEPERATION from God. How seperate from God was Mary while Yeshua was in her?

[ December 31, 2002, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Netcurtains3:

if Mary did not say "Yes" to God's "implantation" then it would have been a form of rape.

To be polite: HOGWASH!! If Mary did not say "Yes" to God, then God would have used someone els. God was not confined to Mary. He is not confined to any one person. Paul "so ran" that he would not be set on the shelf." He realized that he too was dispensible. Any one can be set on the shelf, be replaced, Mary not withstanding. Mary was a sinner. She submitted to the will of God at that time. So did Elizabeth. So did Joseph. So did many others. They are all equal in God's sight, doing what God wanted them to do. The all fall into the category of Romans 3:23:
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
DHK

 

[Netcurtains3]

Come on DHK,

We like to think of "Love" as something that is meant to happen, something special. We don't normally think of an assembly line of girls that we keep asking the same question too. I guess Catholics are being over Romantic (no pun intended) about Mary and God - but so what?

DHK, put the bible down for a second and just give me your honest views about Mary?

DHK, The Apostles knew Yeshua for THREE years - MAry knew Yeshua for THIRTY THREE years and NINE MONTHS.

[ December 31, 2002, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]

 

[DanPC]

"What could be more clear than that."

It could say what you said the bible says--that Mary sinned. You have yet to present that verse and you disregard the ones that indicate that she didn't. You have made a case but not the one that you said--the bible says that Mary sinned.
Mere speculation on your part--similar to that you condemn if the thinking is Catholic.
Dan

 

[neal4christ]

Just an observation. Sin entered through Adam. So wouldn't it follow that the "sin nature" was passed through man's seed? Isn't this the significance of God being the Father of Christ and Mary His mother, so that He would not inherit a sin nature? Isn't that why it was prophesied in Gen. 3:15 that it would be the seed of woman, even though that didn't make much sense since seed came from man? So then Mary did not need to be sinless to carry Christ in her womb. She was the vessel God chose to bring His Son into the world.

Just thinking out loud. Input/explanation would be appreciated from both sides if you have any insight.

Neal

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Netcurtains3:
DHK, put the bible down for a second and just give me your honest views about Mary?

Opinions are worthless. What does God say? That is what counts. "Thus saith the Lord." I have no opinion apart from what the Bible says on the subject.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

you disregard the ones that indicate that she didn't.

I haven't seen any that indicate she didn't sin. Gen. 3:15 has nothing to do with Mary sinning at all.

Neal

 

[DanPC]

"Gen. 3:15 has nothing to do with Mary sinning at all."

It has to do with putting enmity between the devil and the woman (Mary). The argument following that Mary was never under Satan's power in sin.

 

[neal4christ]

Isn't enmity defined as hostility?

Neal

 

[Bible-belted]

"Does this mean you accept the concept of original sin and that baptism is needed to wash one of that sin?"

Of course I accept the doctrine of Original Sin. Not to mention Total Depravity!

I reject baptismal regenreation.

"Babies are unable to commit an actual sin."

That's why the answer lies in the federal headship of Adam.

"I would agree that they are under the stain of original sin but not that they have actually sinned."

Then you don't believe in Original Sin.

"I didn't know baptists believed in original sin."

Then you spend a lot of time talking about and arguing against things you are ignorant of.

"It could say what you said the bible says--that Mary sinned."

But it does say that, just not in so many words. It is only becuase you are unwilling to accept anything but the very words "Mary sined" (an arbitrary and self-serving stadard, one that you no doubt do not hold all people to, making it also a double and dishonest standard) that you refuse to admit the facts.

"You have yet to present that verse and you disregard the ones that indicate that she didn't."

There are no verses that imply she did not sin. RC scholarship admits as much. That you do not is irrelevant.

"You have made a case but not the one that you said--the bible says that Mary sinned."

The case has been made. It is only by holding to a dishonest double standard that you say this. Not to mention the fact that you have the burden of proof backwards; if scripture says "all sinned" then you have to present a compelling case for an exception. You have not done so.

"Mere speculation on your part--similar to that you condemn if the thinking is Catholic."

LOL. Presenting such a detailed scritural argument is miles ahead of speculation, and light years of Catholic speculations.

"It has to do with putting enmity between the devil and the woman (Mary). The argument following that Mary was never under Satan's power in sin."

It has already been demonstrated that this argument is false. the interpretation proceeds from an inorrect translation, and is not held to in any modern RC Bible. And the interpretation is impossible without that flawed translation.

Please do not continue to come forward with evidence that has been refuted. Show us something new.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by DanPC:
You have made a case but not the one that you said--the bible says that Mary sinned.
Mere speculation on your part

Is it mere speculation that Mary offered a sin offering? Why did Mary offer a sin offering? Please explain. This is not mere speculation.
DHK

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DanPC:
You have made a case but not the one that you said--the bible says that Mary sinned.
Mere speculation on your part

Is it mere speculation that Mary offered a sin offering? Why did Mary offer a sin offering? Please explain. This is not mere speculation.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]Dan may be unaware of the difference betwen specualtion (what Netcurtains gets into) and deriving logical inferences based on exegesis.

 

[DanPC]

""I didn't know baptists believed in original sin." Then you spend a lot of time talking about and arguing against things you are ignorant of."

Well actually this thread was on Mary--something Catholics do know about not on Baptist belief on original sin which I don't know nor care about.

"It is only becuase you are unwilling to accept anything but the very words "Mary sinned""

When someone says that the bible says something explicitly then I hold them to their statement. Had DHK said he can prove Mary sinned from different bible passages I would not have bothered to comment. (I realize DHK would not accept my argument anymore than I would his.) But he made a statement that is not supported by Scripture.
His statement back on page 3 was this--
"The Scriptures specifically indicate that Mary was a sinner."
All of the talk about sin offering, Romans, etc just show me that the above statement from DHK is false. If DHK doesn't want to amend or retract his statement so be it.

"Show us something new." Like the arguments I have read on this board. New as in wrong again.

[ December 31, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: DanPC ]

 

[DHK]

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Mary the mother of Jesus; this is the only time she is mentioned after the
resurrection of Christ, and she was with other redeemed sinners supplicating
God for mercy. The fact that Mary the mother of Jesus attended with others,
when they met to implore divine mercy, is evidence that she, as well as they,
needed mercy; that she was a sinner, and like other sinners, could be saved
only through the rich grace of God in Jesus Christ. (Family Bible Notes)

 

[Netcurtains3]

DHK,
This tale (in my honest opinion - seriously) is linked to the Marriage Feast of Cana.

Mary had an important part.

 

[neal4christ]

His statement back on page 3 was this--
"The Scriptures specifically indicate that Mary was a sinner."
All of the talk about sin offering, Romans, etc just show me that the above statement from DHK is false. If DHK doesn't want to amend or retract his statement so be it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but he said that they specifically indicate, not explicitly say. I believe that he has beyond a reasonable doubt shown that they indicate Mary was a sinner. I don't know where you have gotten the idea that indicate = say. It looks as though you are putting words in his mouth and holding him to something he did not say.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

I am leaving to go to my pastor's house for New Year's and will be back late tonight or tomorrow.

Happy New Year to everyone!

God bless you in this new year,
Neal

[ December 31, 2002, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]