Is Matthew 19 speaks of having eternal life via good works?

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
The gospels are far from useless to Christians that are walking by the Spirit and understand the Gospel of the Glory of Christ. The heavenly kingdom was offered to the Jews, but because they rejected it, it is now being offered to the new creation in Christ, neither Jew nor Greek.

Therefore the gospels are extremely important, because we need to know and understand what was being said and taught because now that offer is given to us.

My point was that Classical Dispensationalists differentiate between the kingdom and salvation. They say the kingdom was offered to the Jews in the gospel. They rejected it. Salvation is currently being offered to us. If you take their theology seriously, the Gospels do not apply to us. I know this because I took two classes from J. Dwight Pentecost at Dallas Seminary in the Gospels and in End Times.

I reject this teaching. Progressive Dispensationalism says that Jesus' offers of the kingdom to the Jews were equivalent to salvation. Jesus was preaching the gospel to the Jews just like we have the gospel preached to us. Therefore, all of the gospels apply to us, including the hard saying that seem to imply works are necessary for salvation.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:

Hi there, Calvibaptist. Welcome to the Baptist Board!

I pray that we will be a blessing to you, and you to us.

As for your post, I find it to be a bit confusing. It appears to me as though you are saying that works are necessary for eternal life, but not necessary for salvation. If you are saying that, salvation alone is not enough for one to be granted eternal life. Please explain this.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the welcome. I pray the same.

It is hard to explain what I am saying, because I am still working out in my mind what I mean! John Piper explains it a lot better than I in his book Future Grace. In it, he tries to make sense of the MANY statements of Christ that tie works to entrance to heaven.

Here's where I come down. We are saved (justified) by grace alone through faith alone. There are no works that justify us (declare us righteous) before God. However, final judgment is according to works. This is very clear from Jesus, Paul and John in the book of Revelation. We are judged by our works. Those who have practiced righteousness enter into life. Those who have practiced lawlessness enter into eternal damnation.

The answer of the Reformers (and I believe the Bible) is that faith always produces righteous works. Therefore, after we are justified by faith, we will then have the works that will be judged righteous by God. So, as believers, we are to examine ourselves to see if we be in the faith. What do we examine? Whether we said the sinner's prayer or went forward in an invitation? NO. We examine our works. This is what 1 John is all about. Works do not save us. But works are a necessary evidence of our salvation, both here and at the judgment.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:


Matthew 19: 16-29

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy "father" (God) and thy "mother": (church) and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

( Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Ga 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


Mt 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

Tit 3:5 (If it is)...Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (Resurrection) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Earth is where Jesus sits on "his throne", in heaven it's on the "right hand", not the throne)

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
(Earth is where Jesus sits on "his throne", in heaven it's on the "right hand", not the throne)

Are you telling me that Jesus never sits on the throne in heaven?

Revelation 3:20-21 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

What do you do with this famous passage that most people use to give a gospel invitation? The promise is made that the overcomer will sit with Jesus on His throne JUST AS He overcame and SAT DOWN ON HIS FATHER'S THRONE!!!! Make no mistake. Jesus is on the throne in heaven or He is not King of kings and Lord of lords.

 

[J. Jump]

Jesus is currently acting as High Priest, not ruler. His rule will begin during the 1,000-year period. During the rule of His 1,000 years He will rule like that of Melkizedek a King/Priest.

He is King of kings and Lord of lords, but He is awaiting His appointed time just as David was annointed king, but had to wait until God removed Saul.

Satan is still ruling the earth and even though Christ is King, He is awaiting the time when satan will be removed and His rule will begin.

 

[Calvibaptist]

So what do you do with these verses?

Ephesians 1:20-23 - which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. 22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Notice that when God raised Jesus from the dead (not 2,000 years after, but "when") He seated Him at His right hand (a position of rule). He is seated far above all principalities and powers and might and dominion. Notice he is above all dominion. That means He rules. But when? Not onlye in this age but in the age to come.

And he put all things under His feet. When did He put all things under His feet? When He seated Christ at His right hand. This signifies that Christ is ruling right now. To say that He is not ruling right now is to say that He is not King. If He is not King then He lost on the cross. The resurrection proves that He won and is now reigning according, not to my theological dispensational teaching, but according to THIS passage.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Please understand that I hold no animosity toward Dispensationalism. I was a dispensationalist, whether I knew it or not, for 26 years. I graduated with an MA from Dallas Theological Seminary as a dispensationalist. I then got an MDiv from Capital Bible Seminary as a dispensationalist. I know all the arguments because I have made them myself. I have just moved away from specifically the teaching of a pre-trib rapture and the eternal separation of Israel and the church because of what I perceive as a lack of biblical support.

If you can take these same scriptures and show me why they HAVE to indicate a pre-trib rapture, I will gladly come back inside the camp.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
As far as the passage is concerned, the question regards eternal life. The answer regards eternal life. Jesus comments on the fact that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God (equivalent to eternal life).

Agreed.

The point is, though, that the word "eternal" means "age-lasting." Which "age" is in view? We know the next age to come will be the 1,000-year reign of Christ. This makes far more sense of the context, since it is entering the Kingdom of Heaven which is in view. We know from various places (e.g. the parable of the pounds in Luke 19) that Jesus will set up that kingdom - and allow people into it - when he returns.

The disciples respond - who then can be saved.

But we must ask, "Saved from what?" And "Saved to what?" Paul talked about being "saved" from a shipwreck - the infinite age was not in view there. Why must we assume it is in view here? The context is being saved into the millennial kingdom. This is also clear from the answer Jesus gives:

1. Sell what you have
2. Give to the poor
3. Take up the cross (in Mark)
4. Follow me

This is quite different from "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

May God bless your studies.

 

[J. Jump]

Well this is where the limits of the human mind come into play, because Jesus does currently rule because He is God. The whole trinity thing

But Jesus the Son has not had all things put under His feet, because if He had then satan wouldn't currently be ruling the earth and there would be peace and harmony between nations. And that obviously hasn't happened.

Christ is King, but again just like in the situation with Saul and David. Christ is currently awaiting the removal of the current ruler.

Again Christ is ruler of everything because He is God, but He will one day yet to come beging to reign as the ruler of this earth in the place of satan and his rebellious angels. Until that day comes He is a King in waiting acting as our High Priest, washing away our sins as we call on Him for forgiveness, so that one day we will be qualified to rule and reign with Him.

You can see the pre-tribulation rapture in the OT in Enoch being removed alive from the earth before the flood, which is a picture of the tribulation that is coming. You can also see the pre-tribulation rapture in the story of Isaac and Rebecca. When Isaac meets his bride he is away from his home (Genesis 24).

 

[genesis12]

If you take their theology seriously, the Gospels do not apply to us.

The Truth contained in the Gospels applies to everyone (no Jew, no Greek). The Apostle Paul carefully presents that to us. The entire plan of salvation and the doctrine of grace thru faith, vs. earned salvation thru works, could not be clearer in the Pauline Epistles. I fail to understand what is wrong with classic dispensationalism. All are saved by grace thru faith during the church age. The Kingdom promised to the Jews is theirs, just after the Tribulation, as a result of having believed. Every believer wins (and that includes the Saints in the Hebrew Bible).

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by slow to learn:
the key to this whole passage is verse 21. Jesus knew where the young man would go in the conversation and was preparing him for the final and only answer. follow me. it is the answer. Jesus told the man that following the law was not enough, there was one thing left and the man rejected it.

I agree. Christ also knew that this man's stumbling block that would keep him from a commitment to Him was his wealth. To be saved we have to commit our life to Jesus and follow Him. That's very clear from this statement from the Lord Himself.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by genesis12:
I fail to understand what is wrong with classic dispensationalism.

The problem that I described with classic dispensationalism in relation to this passage is that Classical Dispensationalists that are true to their belief system will take this passage and say it is irrelevant for people in the church age. They say it only applied to Jews at that time who were being offered the kingdom by Christ. Once they rejected and crucified their Messiah, the offer was rescinded and a new, different offer of salvation was made to Jew and Gentile alike.

Here's the problem. There is no evidence to support this. This is a discussion regarding salvation and some on this board are saying that Jesus and this man were not talking about salvation but about entrance into the Millenial Kingdom for the Jews at that time in history. It just doesn't work.

 

[J. Jump]

So Calvibaptist, you are saying that John the Baptist and Jesus were preaching salvation by grace through faith to the Jews?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

My throne
His throne

I know one thing, "reading comprehension" definitely isn't a "Strong point" among "Calvinist".

Re 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him (God) that sat on the throne a book

Re 5:7 And he (Jesus) came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Mt 22:44 The LORD (God)said unto my Lord, (Jesus) Sit thou on my right hand,

Heb 8:1 We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

The "Father" sits on "His Throne".
Jesus sits on "My Throne".

Are you having trouble with the "trinity"??

Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I graduated with an MA from Dallas Theological Seminary as a dispensationalist. I then got an MDiv from Capital Bible Seminary as a dispensationalist.

You won't find "Biblical wisdom" in "Historical data" or "Cementaries", uh, excuse me, "Seminaries".

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing (HG) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
I have just moved away from specifically the teaching of a pre-trib rapture and the eternal separation of Israel and the church because of what I perceive as a lack of biblical support.

If you can take these same scriptures and show me why they HAVE to indicate a pre-trib rapture, I will gladly come back inside the camp.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. (A Jew)

Under the OT, Jews came to expect physical "Signs and wonders" as proof, however Jesus won't give them the "Signs and Wonders" they expect and won't believe without.

The system that produced the S/W, the "law and Prophet" (L/P) stopped with Jesus, in effect causing the Jews to be "Blinded" until Jesus was finished with the Church, (fulness of the gentiles) that is the rapture of the Holy Ghost/church.

Leadership by both "L/P" and the "HG" do not fuction at the same time in the same time frame,

this is why Israel is blinded until the church rapture, then Israel will return under the "L/P" (Two witnesses) for the trib period, these two witnesses will produce many S/W during the trib.

If you've ever heard someone ask why God doesn't work today as he did in the OT, this is why.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:

Hi there, Calvibaptist. Welcome to the Baptist Board!

I pray that we will be a blessing to you, and you to us.

As for your post, I find it to be a bit confusing. It appears to me as though you are saying that works are necessary for eternal life, but not necessary for salvation. If you are saying that, salvation alone is not enough for one to be granted eternal life. Please explain this.</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the welcome. I pray the same.

It is hard to explain what I am saying, because I am still working out in my mind what I mean! John Piper explains it a lot better than I in his book Future Grace. In it, he tries to make sense of the MANY statements of Christ that tie works to entrance to heaven.

Here's where I come down. We are saved (justified) by grace alone through faith alone. There are no works that justify us (declare us righteous) before God. However, final judgment is according to works. This is very clear from Jesus, Paul and John in the book of Revelation. We are judged by our works. Those who have practiced righteousness enter into life. Those who have practiced lawlessness enter into eternal damnation.

The answer of the Reformers (and I believe the Bible) is that faith always produces righteous works. Therefore, after we are justified by faith, we will then have the works that will be judged righteous by God. So, as believers, we are to examine ourselves to see if we be in the faith. What do we examine? Whether we said the sinner's prayer or went forward in an invitation? NO. We examine our works. This is what 1 John is all about. Works do not save us. But works are a necessary evidence of our salvation, both here and at the judgment.

Thank you for your explanation, an explanation with which I agree.

 

[Bro. Ruben]

Now wait!

The discussions were truly revealing. I truly appreciate all the views given.

Can a person (saved by Grace thru faith -- therefore Justified) can go to heaven but never join Christ in the millenium? How? Because this man didn't do much good works while living.

Was that possible? And that can be possible, too?

Please clarify.

Thanks.

 

[Bro. Ruben]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:

Those who have practiced lawlessness enter into eternal damnation.

This was my point; what if this man was a Christian while being alive. As we know there are Christians who have turned away (backslide???) from God. (I don't believe Christians would lose their salvation.)

Thanks, Calvibaptist.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:

Those who have practiced lawlessness enter into eternal damnation.

This was my point; what if this man was a Christian while being alive. As we know there are Christians who have turned away (backslide???) from God. (I don't believe Christians would lose their salvation.)

Thanks, Calvibaptist. </font>

Heb. 4:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. (NASB, 1995)

 

[Bro. Ruben]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:

Heb. 4:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. (NASB, 1995)

(Note: same view I had posted on the other thread. I can take these verses for a Christian being a backslider. But not the portion as if it is showing that one can lose his salvation.)

The Bible teaches of Regeneration, and that a man must be born again. Being dead spiritually we have to be regenerated in order to see God.

Now, does the Bible teach of un-regeneration? And in order for a man to lose his salvation, it means he has to die again spiritually. Where can we find such a teaching in the Bible -- that a man is capable of being dead again (spiritually) after he/she has gained "life"?

Death, in the Bible, means "separation". When we received the Lord, repented and declared Him as our Saviour, then we gain eternal life. At my age, I haven't read any verse that a man can be spiritually dead (separated) again from God. In the Bible a doctrine shows "being born again"; but NO, NOTHING, being "dead again".