Is Matthew 19 speaks of having eternal life via good works?

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
With all due respect to J. Jump, I graduated from a dispensationalist seminary and have heard this type of argument way too much. The person does not ask Jesus what he must do to get into the kingdom. He asks Hims what he must do to inherit eternal life. To make this passage about the 1,000-year kingdom does injustice to the question and to Jesus' answer. [/QB]

Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
With all due respect to J. Jump, I graduated from a dispensationalist seminary and have heard this type of argument way too much. The person does not ask Jesus what he must do to get into the kingdom. He asks Hims what he must do to inherit eternal life. To make this passage about the 1,000-year kingdom does injustice to the question and to Jesus' answer.

Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Thank you, Lacy, for making my point that the kingdom of God and eternal life are equivalent.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The person does not ask Jesus what he must do to get into the kingdom. He asks Hims what he must do to inherit eternal life.

Thank you, Lacy, for making my point that the kingdom of God and eternal life are equivalent.

 

[JackRUS]

It depends on the context.

Jesus will also have a kingdom here on Earth during the Millennium.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The person does not ask Jesus what he must do to get into the kingdom. He asks Hims what he must do to inherit eternal life.

Thank you, Lacy, for making my point that the kingdom of God and eternal life are equivalent.

</font>[/QUOTE]I probably should have been clearer with my first post. I should have said, "The person does not ask Jesus what he must do to get into the MILLENIAL kingdom." It was in the midst of a discussion I was having where someone was saying that this person was not asking about salvation, but about the millenial kingdom. I was arguing that the kingdom of heaven/God is equivalent to salvation. Sorry for the confusion of my posts.

Again, thank you for the verses that prove what I believe.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by JackRUS:
It depends on the context.

Jesus will also have a kingdom here on Earth during the Millennium.

I agree that Jesus will have an earthly kingdom for 1,000 years on earth during the Millennium. How does this change given the context of the two verses that Lacy provided that equate kingdom of God with life?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
It was in the midst of a discussion I was having where someone was saying that this person was not asking about salvation, but about the millenial kingdom. I was arguing that the kingdom of heaven/God is equivalent to salvation.

That is a false conclusion. All that can be proven by these two verses is that the "KOG" is/can be the same as "life".

You must make a jump in logic (or else assume the thing to be proved) to go on and say that both refer to salvation. (I assume when you say "salvation", you are referring to eternal salvation and not temporal salvation ala. Acts 17:31, 2Pet 2:5, etc.)

There is ample evidence to prove that the terms, "Kingdom of God", "The Kingdom", "Kingdom of Heaven", are most often synonomous and usually all refer to Christ's literal future earthly reign.

I believe there is a "salvation from chastening", all through the scripture, which is consistently associated with good works after (eternal) salvation -or the new birth.

This "salvation" is temporal not essentially eternal. The consistent association of good works to the various "kingdom" terms, lends to my belief that this is the nature of the "salvation" here.

In other words to "enter the kingdom", or "life" is to be "saved" from millennial chastening. (ie. lowering in rank or exclusion)

lacy

 

[Hope of Glory]

I was arguing that the kingdom of heaven/God is equivalent to salvation.

Well, if you're talking about salvation of the soul, then it's comparable.

That is a false conclusion. All that can be proven by these two verses is that the "KOG" is/can be the same as "life".

That's exactly the meaning of "the life". "The life" is life in the age to come.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
That's exactly the meaning of "the life". "The life" is life in the age to come.

I agree.

Lacy

(PS, when quoting multiple posters it can be confusing when you don't designate who said what.)

 

[Lacy Evans]

dual post

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
That is a false conclusion. All that can be proven by these two verses is that the "KOG" is/can be the same as "life".

And "life" in this context means???? Let me repost the two verses so we can examine them...

Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

In these two verses, what is KOG/life contrasted with? Being cast into hell fire. They are not contrasted with "not making it into the millennial kingdom." Let's look at the obvious. The opposite of "being cast into hell fire" is eternal life or salvation. This is why both of these verses reference salvation. This is why KOG/life refer, not to temporary salvation and surviving into the kingdom era, but eternal life in heaven as opposed to hell fire.

You must make a jump in logic (or else assume the thing to be proved) to go on and say that both refer to salvation.

See above

(I assume when you say "salvation", you are referring to eternal salvation and not temporal salvation ala. Acts 17:31, 2Pet 2:5, etc.)

HUH?!? Acts 17:31 does not use the word salvation.

Acts 17:31 "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

It talks about the day of judgment and the assurance that this is going to happen because of the resurrection of Christ. I'm not sure where you get either temporal or eternal salvation out of that.

Obviously 2 Peter 2:5 speaks of temporal salvation from a specific event. Context determines meaning.

There is ample evidence to prove that the terms, "Kingdom of God", "The Kingdom", "Kingdom of Heaven", are most often synonomous and usually all refer to Christ's literal future earthly reign.

Show me the "ample evidence" and I might believe you.

I believe there is a "salvation from chastening", all through the scripture, which is consistently associated with good works after (eternal) salvation -or the new birth.

That's nice. Do you have any scripture to back it up?

This "salvation" is temporal not essentially eternal. The consistent association of good works to the various "kingdom" terms, lends to my belief that this is the nature of the "salvation" here.

An assumption brought to the text from a particular hermeneutical approach. I used to be a Classical Dispensationalist, so I know the view quite well.

In other words to "enter the kingdom", or "life" is to be "saved" from millennial chastening. (ie. lowering in rank or exclusion)

Again, scriptural support for "lowering in rank or exclusion" even being in the scripture and ever being called "enter the kingdom," "life," or "saved."

BTW, congrats on 1000 posts. It is obvious to me that you know what you are talking about and argue (discuss fairly logically. Something I appreciate.

 

[Lacy Evans]

HUH?!? Acts 17:31 does not use the word salvation.

My bad 27:31

Act 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />HUH?!? Acts 17:31 does not use the word salvation.

My bad 27:31

Act 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved. </font>[/QUOTE]Gotcha. And I agree. It is talking about temporal salvation from a particular danger.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
In these two verses, what is KOG/life contrasted with? Being cast into hell fire. They are not contrasted with "not making it into the millennial kingdom." Let's look at the obvious. The opposite of "being cast into hell fire" is eternal life or salvation. This is why both of these verses reference salvation. This is why KOG/life refer, not to temporary salvation and surviving into the kingdom era, but eternal life in heaven as opposed to hell fire.

Again you assume that a Christian cannot suffer chastening temporarily in hell (the underworld) if he is excluded from the Kingdom. (Note: In using the term "hell" I am not speaking of the final, eternal Lake of Fire but of the temporal abode referred to in the KJV as "hell".)

In my opinion, Rev 20 certainly suggests that there will be some in Hell who are "written in the Book of Life"

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Also the verses we previously discussed (cutting off hands and plucking out eyes) were directed at disciples who were called the "salt of the earth" and a "city on a hill".

Also see:
Matt 5:22, Matt 7:19, Matt 13:41,42, Rom 11:21,22

Show me the "ample evidence" [That the KOH and the KOG are generally synonymous terms]and I might believe you.

http://members.aol.com/twarren13/kingdom.html

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/157.htm

(I don't agree with everything on these sites but they sufficiently address the issue)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I believe there is a "salvation from chastening", all through the scripture, which is consistently associated with good works after (eternal) salvation -or the new birth.

That's nice. Do you have any scripture to back it up?</font>[/QUOTE]On the contrary, rather than being "nice", it is terrifying. (2 Cor 5:11)


1 Cor 11 tells us that we need to have a proper attitude regarding the Lord's Supper, or God might make us sick or even kill us. That's pretty plain. If you want to be "saved" from death and sickness, fix the problem with the Lord's Table

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rereigning with Christ is conditioned here on overcoming/repenting.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lacy Said:
This "salvation" is temporal not essentially eternal. The consistent association of good works to the various "kingdom" terms, lends to my belief that this is the nature of the "salvation" here.

You said:
An assumption brought to the text from a particular hermeneutical approach. I used to be a Classical Dispensationalist, so I know the view quite well.</font>[/QUOTE]An assumption I make based upon plain scripture.

1Co 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:2-7, 2Pet 1:5-13, Matt 18:24-35

Again, scriptural support for "lowering in rank or exclusion" even being in the scripture and ever being called "enter the kingdom," "life," or "saved."

Lowering of Rank -

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luk 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Exclusion -

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

BTW, congrats on 1000 posts. It is obvious to me that you know what you are talking about and argue (discuss fairly logically. Something I appreciate.

Thank you for your gracious spirit. May God Bless your studies.


lacy

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Again you assume that a Christian cannot suffer chastening temporarily in hell (the underworld) if he is excluded from the Kingdom. (Note: In using the term "hell" I am not speaking of the final, eternal Lake of Fire but of the temporal abode referred to in the KJV as "hell".)

In my opinion, Rev 20 certainly suggests that there will be some in Hell who are "written in the Book of Life"

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

One thing that causes much confusion is the failure to distinguish between "hell" and "the everlasting lake of fire". Sadly, many people use them synonymously, which creates contradictions and confusion.

For an excellent exposition on the meaning of "the life", right click and save this pdf: The Meaning of Life

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Again you assume that a Christian cannot suffer chastening temporarily in hell (the underworld) if he is excluded from the Kingdom. (Note: In using the term "hell" I am not speaking of the final, eternal Lake of Fire but of the temporal abode referred to in the KJV as "hell".)

Are you a Catholic? Because this is their doctrine of purgatory. How can a believer (Christian) suffer in hell, or anywhere else, after death for sins that Jesus already suffered for?

In my opinion, Rev 20 certainly suggests that there will be some in Hell who are "written in the Book of Life"

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

To quote someone you probably know (yourself) - " That is a false conclusion. All that can be proven by these two verses is that" death, hell, and those not written in the book of life are all cast into the lake of fire. It does not even suggest that there are any in hell that were written in the book of life, just that there are in hell, at least, those who are not found written in the book.

Show me the "ample evidence" [That the KOH and the KOG are generally synonymous terms]and I might believe you.

I never said this quote. Personally, I do believe that KOH and KOG are generally synonymous terms. It is classical dispensationalists (of which I used to be) that differentiate between the terms. I also think that generally they refer to "where Christ is King and ruling." If this doesn't picture the heart of the believer, I don't know what else does.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

It never ceases to amaze me how complicated theology can be built around simple ideas that Christ taught while here on earth. I've found that usually this is done to get around scripture that doesn't fit into someone's preconceived (and unBiblical) view of the Bible.

For me, I believe in one Heaven for the saints and one Hell for the damned. There will be ONE judgement (not 5 or 14 as some here have stated) to determine who will be sent where. This judgement is described in MA 25 and in Rev. 20.

The whole book of Revelations was typed as symbolic by its very name. Support for the rapture, the tribulation, and the millenium is very weak and certainly not strong enough to build an entire gospel around it.

I believe we've made the gospel too complex. Jesus said it can be understood by a little child. We need to get back to that childlike faith and quit focusing on all these embellishments.

 

[J. Jump]

This is where a huge mistake is made, in my opinion, when it comes to the Bible. Salvation by grace through faith is simple enough for a child to understand, but once we've been made alive spiritually there is a time to get off the milk of the Word and move on to the meat and then there is a time to move on to the strong meat.

Salvation by grace through faith is just the beginning point of the journey.

That's why we see Christians and non-Christians that have basically the same viewpoints on life. Christians have been taught that once they are "saved" they are just hanging out on this planet until they get loaded up on the last train to heaven.

There is far more about the discipleship walk that just eternity. And until we realize that and until we start discipling folks then we will continue to see a church that looks exactly like the world.

 

[Calvibaptist]

I agree J. Jump. Isn't that why Jesus didn't say, "Go and make converts?" He said, "God and make disciples."

 

[Calvibaptist]

Lacy,

It's going to take me some time to read all the verses you listed and remember exactly what point they were being used to support/refute...