Is Matthew 19 speaks of having eternal life via good works?

[Bro. Ruben]

Very helpful and nice discussions!

May I kindly interrupt you guys.

I wonder if my question has been answered. Being the originator of this thread, may one of you please answer this question:

Can a person who believed and received the Lord Jesus Christ (meaning "saved") can become a son of God but cannot join the Lord Jesus in the millenium? Maybe because he/she became a carnal Christian while living.

Because as I study the course of discussions, and the link given about the "Dualism of Eternal Life" which I haven't finished reading, and to what had happened to the Rich Young Ruler, it is like telling me that there could be Christians (or say saved believers) who might not be able to join the millenium.

I'm waiting for your enlightenment. Pardon my ignorance.

Many thanks.

 

[J. Jump]

Bro. Ruben,

That is correct there will be many a Christian, unfortunately, that will not experience "life," in the coming Kingdom. They will not be able to rule and reign with Christ as part of the bride, because they did not allow Him to act as High Priest in their lives during their time here on earth.

You can see this picture in Adam and Eve. Eve was already created in Adam from the very beginning. Genesis 1 says that God said let "them" have dominion although it was only Adam that was currently on the scene.

Adam is put to sleep (typifing Christ's coming death) and a part of Adam's body is taken out and formed into Eve to be his bride/helpmate.

Once a person is spiritually made alive (saved) then they become part of the body of Christ, however not the entire body will make up the bride. Only a part.

You can also see this picture in Abraham sending his servant back to his people to find a bride for his son Isaac. They were all his people, but only Rebecca became the bride.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Again you assume that a Christian cannot suffer chastening temporarily in hell (the underworld) if he is excluded from the Kingdom. (Note: In using the term "hell" I am not speaking of the final, eternal Lake of Fire but of the temporal abode referred to in the KJV as "hell".)

Are you a Catholic? Because this is their doctrine of purgatory. </font>[/QUOTE]I assure you I am quite Baptist. I could site many Baptist and/or Brethren teachers who believe the same as I, but who taught what is irrelevent.

How can a believer (Christian) suffer in hell, or anywhere else, after death for sins that Jesus already suffered for?

I had the same question about twelve years ago. So I set out to conclusively prove from scripture that chastening is limited to this life.

It's just not there.

In fact, most of the verses that warn of chastening suggest that the Judgment Seat of Christ is the ultimate place of reckoning between father and children, master and servants, landowner and stewards, etc.)

I'll answer your question with a question and you tell me the difference. The New Testament promises us that saved folks are eternally safe from eternal separation from God (in the LOF), nevertheless as members of God's household we are subject to house rules and subsequent consequences for obedience or disobedience. In other words we can be chastened because we are his children. (God made some sick and killed some at the church at Corinth)

My question to you is this:

How can a believer (Christian) suffer chastening, (even death) in this life for sins that Jesus already suffered for?

The answer is obvious. However, now it is up to us to prove that there is no further chastening or reckoning possible after death. I'm still searching after 12 years.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In my opinion, Rev 20 certainly suggests that there will be some in Hell who are "written in the Book of Life"

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

To quote someone you probably know (yourself) - " That is a false conclusion. All that can be proven by these two verses is that" death, hell, and those not written in the book of life are all cast into the lake of fire. It does not even suggest that there are any in hell that were written in the book of life, just that there are in hell, at least, those who are not found written in the book.</font>[/QUOTE]Sometimes I think I know myself.

Of course this is not my main "proof text". Christ himself warns his disciples who belong to him(Mark 9:41-50) to fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. That's quite enough for me.

But look again at the verse in Revelation. If nobody was foung written in the book of life, then why the language?And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I'll give you an example. If I wrote you an e-mail and said "Yesterday I had some trouble in my 6th grade classroom. In my frustration, I said, I want all the boys out in the hall!" Now would any reasonable man reading that e-mail assume that I had no girls in my class, or no boys for that matter.

In other words, if everyone coming up to be judged at the GWT is on his way to the lake of fire, then why didn't it say, "They were all judged and cast into the LOF because none of them were "found written in the book of life"

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lacy wrote:
Show me the "ample evidence" [That the KOH and the KOG are generally synonymous terms]and I might believe you.

Calvibaptist said:
I never said this quote. Personally, I do believe that KOH and KOG are generally synonymous terms. It is classical dispensationalists (of which I used to be) that differentiate between the terms. I also think that generally they refer to "where Christ is King and ruling." If this doesn't picture the heart of the believer, I don't know what else does. </font>[/QUOTE]Brother Calvibaptist,

Please forgive my clumsy use of brackets[]. I thought I was addressing your question, but I apparantly misunderstood. Here is the original quote:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lacy said:
There is ample evidence to prove that the terms, "Kingdom of God", "The Kingdom", "Kingdom of Heaven", are most often synonomous and usually all refer to Christ's literal future earthly reign.

Calvibaptist said:
Show me the "ample evidence" and I might believe you.</font>[/QUOTE]Please clarify your position and what you desired evidence for. I'll try to clarify my position. It's so hard because we don't know each other and we tend so much to pidgeon-hole people. It's certainly one of the drawbacks and limitations of this format for debate.

I appreciate your spirit.

lacy

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:
Very helpful and nice discussions!

May I kindly interrupt you guys.

I wonder if my question has been answered. Being the originator of this thread, may one of you please answer this question:

Can a person who believed and received the Lord Jesus Christ (meaning "saved") can become a son of God but cannot join the Lord Jesus in the millenium? Maybe because he/she became a carnal Christian while living.

Because as I study the course of discussions, and the link given about the "Dualism of Eternal Life" which I haven't finished reading, and to what had happened to the Rich Young Ruler, it is like telling me that there could be Christians (or say saved believers) who might not be able to join the millenium.

I'm waiting for your enlightenment. Pardon my ignorance.

Many thanks.

Jesus comes with all his Saints Rapture, trib maytyr.

1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Once saved, you're no longer until the "WRATH" of God, but under "Chastisement", suppose a "Carnal Christian" rebells against God after being saved, what happens??

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you,
(this can be either "physical" or "Spiritual", as in "whoring after other gods")

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord (MK) Jesus.

Israel rejected the "Spirit of God" (Jesus) committing "Spiritual fornication" (Devil was their father) and because of it, Israel will enter the trib under the authority of Satan to "destroy the flesh" of any who seek to be saved by Jesus.

This is "Chastisement", not wrath, God only chastises "his own".

God's no respecter of person, what he'll do to Israel for rebelling, he do to a "Christian", just as Paul wrote,

"TEN VIRGINS" went to meet the "Bridegroom", but five had let their lights go out, they had "quenched the spirit", no OIL, and they wasn't raptured, they were saved, but not rapture and entered the trib to be turned over to satan.

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

If we can't keep the "old man" (body of sin) crucified God will allow Satan to do it for us.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin/FLESH might be destroyed,

 

[Hope of Glory]

How can a believer (Christian) suffer in hell, or anywhere else, after death for sins that Jesus already suffered for?

Well, once you realize that there's a difference between chastizing punishment and punitive punishment, it's fairly easy. The Scriptures use two different words, although they are not distinguished in many translations.

Can a person who believed and received the Lord Jesus Christ (meaning "saved") can become a son of God but cannot join the Lord Jesus in the millenium? Maybe because he/she became a carnal Christian while living.

Absolutely! You are either going to serve now, voluntarily, and receive glory and honor in the age to come, or you are going to serve then, and there will be tears streaming down your face when you see what you missed out on.

quote:

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
quote:

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Again you assume that a Christian cannot suffer chastening temporarily in hell (the underworld) if he is excluded from the Kingdom. (Note: In using the term "hell" I am not speaking of the final, eternal Lake of Fire but of the temporal abode referred to in the KJV as "hell".)

Are you a Catholic? Because this is their doctrine of purgatory.

I assure you I am quite Baptist. I could site many Baptist and/or Brethren teachers who believe the same as I, but who taught what is irrelevent.

This used to be a standard teaching in many Baptist churches. However, it is rare now, as it hinders you from "growing your church".

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

IF you interpret Rev. literally (and not symbolically as I believe to be correct) here is the ONLY mention of the Millenium in the Bible.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Notice that only those who have been matryed for Christ are included in the Millenium. Therefore, yes most Christians would be excluded. There's no mention of a temporary perdition anywhere. I agree with the question of whether this isn't the Catholic idea of purgatory.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
IF you interpret Rev. literally (and not symbolically as I believe to be correct) here is the ONLY mention of the Millenium in the Bible.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Notice that only those who have been matryed for Christ are included in the Millenium. Therefore, yes most Christians would be excluded. There's no mention of a temporary perdition anywhere. I agree with the question of whether this isn't the Catholic idea of purgatory.

This is admittedly one of the few verses that identifies Christ's Kingdom as 1000 years in duration, but Christ's Kingdom is the central theme of the Bible.

The Tribulation Martyrs are the context here, but there are other scriptures directed at us to tell us how to gain entrance too.

As far as the Purgatory comments I will quote my friend,Joey Faust, who said "Yes, my view is "like" Catholic purgatory in the sense that it is a temporary punishment. But it is no more like the Catholic purgatory than the Biblical ordinance of the Lord's Supper is "like" the Catholic mass! It is no more "like" the Catholic purgatory than the Saturday door knocking ministry of our churches is "like" the J.W.'s door knocking!" (http://www.kingdombaptist.org/vanimpe1.cfm)


Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

http://www.inthebeginning.org/kingdom/roadhouse/believers.pdf

This is a booklet by W. F. Roadhouse (1875-1951).

Lacy

 

[Calvibaptist]

Again, I ask how we can be punished for sins that have already been paid for by the blood of Christ?

 

[Bro. Ruben]

Thank you Me4Him and Calvibaptist for your replies; I'm still digesting and weighing them.

Now, here's my follow up questions. If those believers and Christians would not be able to join Christ and other believers in the Millenium, where they would be during that period? Would they be staying in a place awaiting to finish the 1000 years? I don't think they would be punished in hell.

Thanks again.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:
Thank you Me4Him and Calvibaptist for your replies; I'm still digesting and weighing them.

Now, here's my follow up questions. If those believers and Christians would not be able to join Christ and other believers in the Millenium, where they would be during that period? Would they be staying in a place awaiting to finish the 1000 years? I don't think they would be punished in hell.

Thanks again.

Are you talking about OT saints? If you are, I believe the typical dispensational response would be that they are in sheol, or the grave, awaiting the resurrection which would be after the 1000 years.

If happen to believe that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." I find it hard to shake my Pre-Trib Rapture past, which may not be a bad thing, but I am moving to at least a Post-Trib Rapture in my current studying. Therefore, I would say that all believers of all ages are raised immediately before the 1000 years and reign with Christ bodily. The scenes in heaven in Revelation 4-19 involve the "spirits of just men made perfect", not their bodies.

But, I am not completely sure about this. I am still studying the Scripture on this.

 

[Bro. Ruben]

I'm talking of all believers (OT & NT).

As what I understand, when a Christian dies he/she goes to heaven. However, what if this Christian was not living "perfectly" during his/her days. And according to the discussions here, he/she may not be joining the Millenium. Right? Now, where he/she would be staying if he/she can't join the Millenium?

Thanks much.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:

This is admittedly one of the few verses that identifies Christ's Kingdom as 1000 years in duration, but Christ's Kingdom is the central theme of the Bible.

The Tribulation Martyrs are the context here, but there are other scriptures directed at us to tell us how to gain entrance too.

As far as the Purgatory comments I will quote my friend,Joey Faust, who said "Yes, my view is "like" Catholic purgatory in the sense that it is a temporary punishment. But it is no more like the Catholic purgatory than the Biblical ordinance of the Lord's Supper is "like" the Catholic mass! It is no more "like" the Catholic purgatory than the Saturday door knocking ministry of our churches is "like" the J.W.'s door knocking!" (http://www.kingdombaptist.org/vanimpe1.cfm)

If I understand you correctly, you're claiming that the millinial kingdom is the central theme in the Bible???? WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. The Millenium is one of the questionable aspects of the end times and is insignificant compared to the real main theme of the Bible, Christ's relationship to man and His heavenly Kingdom.

Please provide other scriptural support for your contention including Joey Faust's statement that there is more than one Hell.

 

[Hope of Glory]

This is admittedly one of the few verses that identifies Christ's Kingdom as 1000 years in duration, but Christ's Kingdom is the central theme of the Bible.

If only more people realized this, there would be much less confusion. I have a lesson in which I tear out a page of the Bible, and then tear it down to 2 verses (Acts 16:30, 31) and say, if all we need is salvation, this is all we need of the Bible.

Again, I ask how we can be punished for sins that have already been paid for by the blood of Christ?

When you don't access the shed blood; when you don't continually confess your sins, as you're commanded to do; when you practice lawlessness...

I would say that all believers of all ages are raised immediately before the 1000 years and reign with Christ bodily.

My great-grandfather used to have a saying for my cousins and me when we were growing up: We can't all be chiefs.

How can all believers rule and reign? Who are they going to rule over?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
If only more people realized this, there would be much less confusion. I have a lesson in which I tear out a page of the Bible, and then tear it down to 2 verses (Acts 16:30, 31) and say, if all we need is salvation, this is all we need of the Bible.

Actually,the central theme of the Bible is the glory of God. Everything else (Israel, the Church, the millennium, heaven, hell, salvation, etc.) exists solely for that end.

Again, I ask how we can be punished for sins that have already been paid for by the blood of Christ? When you don't access the shed blood; when you don't continually confess your sins, as you're commanded to do; when you practice lawlessness...

So, Christ's death was not sufficient? Believers DO access the shed blood. Believers DO continually confess their sins. Believers DON'T practice lawlessness.

I would say that all believers of all ages are raised immediately before the 1000 years and reign with Christ bodily. My great-grandfather used to have a saying for my cousins and me when we were growing up: We can't all be chiefs.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

At the very least, those who are beheaded during the "tribulation" reign with Christ for the thousand years.

Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Everyone who overcomes sits on the throne with Him.

How can all believers rule and reign? Who are they going to rule over?

The standard Dispensationalist answer (which is what I said I was giving in the first place) is that people survive the tribulation, turn to Christ, go into the Millenial kingdom alive, and continue to have children during the 1000 years. These are the ones who are ruled by the resurrected saints.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Please provide other scriptural support for your contention including Joey Faust's statement that there is more than one Hell.

Neither I nor Joey believe in more that one Hell. We do believe that Hell is in the heart of the Earth (Mat 12:40,Acts 2:27-31, Is 14:9, Amos 9:2, etc.), and is not the final eternal place of punishment for the unsaved. The Lake of Fire is the final place, and Hell is ultimately cast there. (Rev 20:13,14) The distinction has recently been obscured, for whatever reason, but the Bible is clear. "Hell" is "Hell" and the LOF is the LOF.

One problem I have encountered in debate is that everyone likes to speak in tongues when they speak of "Hell". {Gehenna, Sheol, Tartarus, Hades, etc.) The English word, "Hell" covers all of the nuances of those Greek and Hebrew words perfectly.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
So, Christ's death was not sufficient? Believers DO access the shed blood. Believers DO continually confess their sins. Believers DON'T practice lawlessness.

Not sufficient for what? What are you asking? Is Christ's blood so "sufficient" that it can keep us from being chastened for disobedience? Quite the contrary. We (if we chose to be disobedient) are promised chastening because we are sons and daughters of Christ.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Not sufficient for what? What are you asking? Is Christ's blood so "sufficient" that it can keep us from being chastened for disobedience? Quite the contrary. We (if we chose to be disobedient) are promised chastening because we are sons and daughters of Christ.

We are promised chastening during this life. We are NEVER promised temporary judgment in hell or the lake of fire. You keep equating chastening with punishment and suggesting that it goes on after this life in hell, before hell is cast into the lake of fire.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Do we struggle with sin here in this life? Of course we do. Do we face the chastening of the Lord during this life? Of course we do. It is part of the process of conforming us to the image of Christ (sanctification). But show me where it says that a true believer (not just a professor) faces any JUDGEMENT of God in hell.

 

[Calvibaptist]

In order to try to show a believer in hell you have to claim that the Jews who crucified Jesus were really OT saints who were saved but rejected Him as their King and that the parables applied to them in that way.

I say, a tree is known by its fruit. They were unsaved, no matter what system of religion they claimed to follow, and showed it by the fact that they crucified the full revelation of God in human flesh.

Mark 7:6-7 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'