Is Matthew 19 speaks of having eternal life via good works?

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
We are promised chastening during this life. We are NEVER promised temporary judgment in hell or the lake of fire.

My main argument is that a carnal Christian can miss the kingdom. (I Cor 6:8-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-7, etc)

There is not one verse that proves that chastening ends at death. Not one.

2 Cor 5:9,10 tells us that we will be judged at the JSOC for both the good and bad things done in the body. Just what does that mean if death is the great leveler, if death instantly works holiness in us all?

You keep equating chastening with punishment and suggesting that it goes on after this life in hell, before hell is cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, I guess I do. When my Daddy got after me with his belt, you could call it either.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Amen. Justified. Resting. Saved from wrath, yet by no means saved from (possiblly very severe)familial chastening.

But there is also an aspect of "wrestling" for those "at rest". I believe in eternal security, DONE, It-is-finished, once-saved-always-saved, etc. whole heartedly. That is not even part of our conversation.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Look back at the conditional part of the verses. There is not one verse that says a Christian automatically gets kingdom entrance because he is saved. It is always conditional.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

But show me where it says that a true believer (not just a professor) faces any JUDGEMENT of God in hell.

Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Does a sinner, or a false professor "belong" to Christ?

Can a sinner or false professor get saved by "cutting off their foot"?


In Mark 9:38, John is speaking. When the Lord answers him, who does the "thy" (second person singular) refer to in Mark 9:43?


Since Jesus warned His disciples about the danger of going to "Hell" in soul and BODY (see Matthew 10:28), and since unbelievers only go to "Hell" in their SOUL before their resurrection, and since all unbelievers come out of "Hell" to stand at the Great White Throne, and are then cast into the Lake of Fire, was Jesus warning believers or unbelievers about going to "Hell" in their BODIES? Do modern Christians need to fear this warning?

A believer can be made sick or killed by God in this life, and still possess everlasting life (John 3:16, 1 Corinthians 11:30). Where is the Bible verse that teaches that temporary chastisement in the age of the Millennial Kingdom would neutralize the promise of everlasting life, even though temporary chastisement in this life does not?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Yes, it is conditional. But the conditions WILL be fulfilled. This is why Paul in Romans 8:29-30 links foreknowlede to predestination to calling to justification to glorification.

I think you and I are speaking a slightly different language. I, for the most part, equate Jesus' teachings on the kingdom to eternal life in heaven. You see something completely different.

 

[Bro. Ruben]

Again and for the last time let me ask this question.

If carnal Christians are not to be included in the Millennium where would they be spending their 1000 years?

Thanks much.

 

[J. Jump]

Bro. Ruben they will be included in the Millennium, they just won't be in a position as firstborn sons, nor will they be a part of the bride of Christ.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:
Again and for the last time let me ask this question.

If carnal Christians are not to be included in the Millennium where would they be spending their 1000 years?

Thanks much.

I do not believe there is such an animal as a "Carnal Christian." Do Christians sin? Undoubtably. Are Christians carnal? I don't believe 1 Cor. 2 is setting up a second-class Christian known as the "carnal Christian." That is Gnosticism from the 2nd century. All believers persevere in the faith because "He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it unto the day of Christ Jesus."

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:
Thank you Me4Him and Calvibaptist for your replies; I'm still digesting and weighing them.

Now, here's my follow up questions. If those believers and Christians would not be able to join Christ and other believers in the Millenium, where they would be during that period? Would they be staying in a place awaiting to finish the 1000 years? I don't think they would be punished in hell.

Thanks again.

Until Jesus "paid the wages of sin", OT Saints were in the "Bosom of Abraham", not Heaven, When Jesus ascended he took these with him.

In the pre trib rapture, Jesus will take the "church", (His Bride) to the wedding supper of the "lamb".

During the Trib, those who come to believe are martyed and are "under the Altar", not at the "Lamb's wedding supper".

(some physically survive the trib)

When Jesus returns, he comes with "ALL HIS SAINTS", OT, Church, Trib martyed.

After the "wheat/tare" separation, the BEMA SEAT Judgment takes place, this is for "REWARDS", according to service, not "Salvation", the Angel reaper will have cast all "tares" into hell to await the GWT.

Lu 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Lu 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

God "Divorced" Israel, but the Trib is the time period when God "heals" the breach between him and Israel, and this "RE-Marriage celebration" take place in the "THIRD DAY" from Jesus's first coming or what we call the "SEVENTH DAY" (MK).

This "Marriage" takes place in CANA, (on earth) not "in heaven" as with the "lamb's marriage".

Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

If you've "drank" of the "purifying water" Jesus gave the "woman at the well", at this marriage, it will turn into the "BEST WINE" you've ever drank.

And "ALL HIS SAINTS" will be there.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:
Again and for the last time let me ask this question.

If carnal Christians are not to be included in the Millennium where would they be spending their 1000 years?

Thanks much.

Bro. Ruben, I think the bible is clear on this. Jesus spoke of two kinds of servants in Matthew 25, the faithful servant that is made ruler over many things, and the wicked slothful servant that is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:
Again and for the last time let me ask this question.

If carnal Christians are not to be included in the Millennium where would they be spending their 1000 years?

Thanks much.

Bro. Ruben, I think the bible is clear on this. Jesus spoke of two kinds of servants in Matthew 25, the faithful servant that is made ruler over many things, and the wicked slothful servant that is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. </font>[/QUOTE]Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The "LORD" of the "Slothful Servant" is "Satan", he has never been saved.

And "HIS LORD" will come at a time he isn't looking for him.

Pr 21:25 The desire of the slothful killeth him; for his hands refuse to labour.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
The "LORD" of the "Slothful Servant" is "Satan", he has never been saved.

And "HIS LORD" will come at a time he isn't looking for him.

Pr 21:25 The desire of the slothful killeth him; for his hands refuse to labour.

Me4Him, I'm going to mark this day on my calendar. I completely agree with your comments here!

 

[James_Newman]

And when does satan come to judge his servants?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
The "LORD" of the "Slothful Servant" is "Satan", he has never been saved.

And "HIS LORD" will come at a time he isn't looking for him.

Pr 21:25 The desire of the slothful killeth him; for his hands refuse to labour.

Me4Him, I'm going to mark this day on my calendar. I completely agree with your comments here! </font>[/QUOTE]I knew we'd find "Common ground" to agree on, "before" the year was over.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
The "LORD" of the "Slothful Servant" is "Satan", he has never been saved.

And "HIS LORD" will come at a time he isn't looking for him.

That is a very frightening conclusion. Matt 25:14, and 19 both identify the servants as belonging to the Lord who comes back to reckon with them. The only difference between the three men is the work they did and the profit the obtained from the gifts that their master gave them. If Satan is the lord of the unprofitable servant, he is also the lord of the other two.

Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

They are all three servants of the same man, all given gifts by the same man so they can operate in his absense, and all three are judged by the same man.


In Luke 24:41-48, we see just one servant with two choices.

Luk 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

The stripes come after the Lord of that servant returns. Many, few, but not eternal. It is a temporary beating. Enemies get the LOF, not a temporary beating.

The only ones in question here are the servants.

The subject of these verses is their behavior and responsibilities.

Stripes are very possible.

It has absolutely nothing to do with satan's servants.

Lacy

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
The "LORD" of the "Slothful Servant" is "Satan", he has never been saved.

And "HIS LORD" will come at a time he isn't looking for him.

That is a very frightening conclusion. Matt 25:14, and 19 both identify the servants as belonging to the Lord who comes back to reckon with them. The only difference between the three men is the work they did and the profit the obtained from the gifts that their master gave them. If Satan is the lord of the unprofitable servant, he is also the lord of the other two.

Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

They are all three servants of the same man, all given gifts by the same man so they can operate in his absense, and all three are judged by the same man.


In Luke 24:41-48, we see just one servant with two choices.

Luk 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

The stripes come after the Lord of that servant returns. Many, few, but not eternal. It is a temporary beating. Enemies get the LOF, not a temporary beating.

The only ones in question here are the servants.

The subject of these verses is their behavior and responsibilities.

Stripes are very possible.

It has absolutely nothing to do with satan's servants.

Lacy </font>[/QUOTE]The wages of sin is death, no exceptions, even for Jesus.

"IF" Jesus saved you, did he save you from "ALL YOUR SINS", or just "past sins"?

The point is: Jesus isn't coming back to die for any more sins, he either paid for "ALL YOUR SINS", "ONCE", or none of your sins, and "IF" they are all paid, then you have "Eternal Salvation", or "OSAS".

The "Servant" who suffered "Stripes" is under "Chastisement", and God only chastises "HIS OWN", the saved, the unsaved are under "WRATH".

This is why the "Servant" who yielded to Satan is unsaved and cast into hell with the unbelievers and not "Chastised" with "Stripes".

Do you see the difference???

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
That is a very frightening conclusion. Matt 25:14, and 19 both identify the servants as belonging to the Lord who comes back to reckon with them.

Lacy,

I don't have time to look at this passage right now to form my thoughts, but I will do so and get back to you...

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:
Now, here's my follow up questions. If those believers and Christians would not be able to join Christ and other believers in the Millenium, where they would be during that period? Would they be staying in a place awaiting to finish the 1000 years? I don't think they would be punished in hell.

Hi Ruben! I didn't think they could possibly be punished in hell, either. It goes against so much we're taught. But then I realised Jesus taught exactly that (e.g. the end of Mark chapter 9).

Admitedly there are not a huge number of verses telling us where carnal Christians will spend the millennium (certainly there are a lot more which tell us that they WILL miss the millennium). But the situation is just the same with absolute salvation. Many times we are told that unbelievers are not saved: that they will be judged. But very few of those verses actually tell us the PLACE of their punishment. Even though it is unimaginably terrible.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
In order to try to show a believer in hell you have to claim that the Jews who crucified Jesus were really OT saints who were saved but rejected Him as their King and that the parables applied to them in that way.

Not so. I know that those of us who beleive Christians may be excluded from the kingdom differ on this and other issues, but I for one certainly do NOT believe the Jews who opposed Christ were saved. And I certainly don't need to. However, since you mention parables, look at Matt 25 and the wedding feast. Some ignore the invitation (most of the Jews?!) and God destroys their city (Jerusalem - A.D. 70?!). These are surely unsaved. But many do come to the feast (saved - particularly Gentiles). And at least one of those who DOES accept the invitation doesn't array himself in a wedding garment. He experiences outer darkness.

I say, a tree is known by its fruit.

Is Jesus here talking about how to tell a true Christian from a false one? That is not the context at all. In the first place it is about false prophets - true teaching from the Spirit of God will bring forth holy living. False doctrine will bring forth carnal living. It is a warning to the saints, as is most/all of the sermon on the mount. If you wanted to apply the passage more generally it seems to me much more Biblical to say that the Spirit's influence in one's life will bring forth good fruit; any other spirit or the flesh's influence will bring forth bad fruit.

I know you don't beleieve in carnal Christians, yet Paul spoke very clearly of them and warned us many times about the possibility of walking in the flesh. And Paul's answer to this? Not, "Look at your fruit to see if you're saved and then if you're walking in the flesh you'd better beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ." But, "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." Many other similar examples could be quoted. The Christian is not told to look to his works to see if he is saved, but to look to his salvation and make sure his works conform to it. The only thing we are to do to prove we are Christians is to see whether or not we are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5).

 

[Lacy Evans]

Brother Arlen Chitwood had a really easy way to see evidence of salvation. He says if a group of guys goes out to tip over outhouses, you can tell which one is not saved by watching to see if the outhouse he tips over is occupied. If it is not, the man is saved.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Brother Arlen Chitwood had a really easy way to see evidence of salvation. He says if a group of guys goes out to tip over outhouses, you can tell which one is not saved by watching to see if the outhouse he tips over is occupied. If it is not, the man is saved.

SHEE!!!, I always believed "WE" were the "only ones" who pulled these "pranks" on "Halloween".

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Bartholomew:
And at least one of those who DOES accept the invitation doesn't array himself in a wedding garment. He experiences outer darkness.

Do you believe Jesus "Accidently" rapture a "non believer", that then must be kicked back out of heaven??

Who is the one "in heaven" who is kicked out (cast down) after the rapture??

Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Trib period:
Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (Israel)

Satan is now "in heaven accusing us".

Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Satan is the one without a "wedding garment"??


1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

We're saved by "GRACE", not works, even if all our works are burned, the "GRACE" is still in effect.

Man can't save himself, and neither can man "UN-Save" himself, it's God's decision, and it's "FINAL".

We can rebell to the point God will turn our flesh over to satan, but the soul will still be saved in the "Day of the Lord", Mill reign.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Which is precisely what God does to Israel for rejecting/rebelling against Jesus. (God)

 

[James_Newman]

The parable in Matthew 22 is not talking about the tribulation period. The kingdom of heaven, the marriage, is the millennial kingdom.

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Verse 7 speaks of the judgment of the earth, the destruction of the wicked at Jesus' return.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

The angels gather the guests together, both bad and good.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

The devil did not get gathered with the elect, this is a believer who was not ready for the wedding.

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Satan is not called, believers are called.

1 Corinthians 5:5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The spirit and the soul are not the same thing, the salvation of the spirit is a free gift to all who will believe. The salvation of the soul at the judgment seat of Christ is dependent on obedience to the Lord's commandments.

Hebrews 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.