Is Matthew 19 speaks of having eternal life via good works?

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Bartholomew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Millennial kingdom never mentioned anywhere throughout in the Old Testament books, during rich man's period.

Friend, you persistently argue "Christ never mentioned 1000 years". That is completely irrelevant. Let me show you why...

William the Conqueror ruled England for 21 years. How many documents refer to this rule as the "21-year kingdom"? No document written during his reign calls it "the 21-year kingdom." Does that mean it didn't last 21 years? If people speak of "William the Conqueror's kingdom" or "William I 's kingdom" or "the Norman rule over England" does this mean they aren't speaking of a kingdom that lasted 21 years? Do I have to find a reference to "21 years" before I can say it is the same kingdom???

In the same way I don't need Jesus to say "1000 years" before I know he is talking about a kingdom that lasts that long. In fact, the length of that kingdom is apparently not very important - that's why the Bible waits until the end to tell us how long it will be. We premillenialists probably make its length sound like the most important thing by calling it "the millennial kingdom." We would be much better off, I think, calling it what the Bible calls it: "the kingdom of God"; or "the kingdom of heaven"; or the "kingdom" where "Messiah reigns" "on the throne of David". However, I think the reason we don't is simply because you a-millennialists don't believe in this kingdom, and we don't want poeple to think we mean what you mean by those terms.

As James has shown you, the Bible really does talk of that kingdom (and does so a lot) in both the New and Old testaments. The people knew it would last for an "age"; and "everlasting life" means exactly that - "life that lasts for the age". The fact that the rich young ruler may not have known how long that age lasted does not mean that he couldn't have been asking about that age.

You can repeat "Christ didn't mention 1000 years" all you like, but it is irrelevant as far as refuted our position goes. </font>[/QUOTE]The idea of the Millenium has very weak support in one chapter of the Bible in a book that is to be read symbolically rather than literally. I simply can't believe that anyone would twist their entire theology around a concept that is so shakey.

(BTW, do you think William the Conquorer knew anything whatsoever about the future? Christ did and continues to do so. It's kind of hard to compare a man with God.)

 

[James_Newman]

In the revelation, the symbolic elements are interpretted for us. For example:
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The woman is a symbol, the literal interpretation of the symbol is a city. Unless there was an interpretation given for the thousand years, there is no reason not to take it literally.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
[QB] Heaven is almost never the object when discussing the next life. The kingdom to the Jews was an earthly kingdom with the Messiah ruling from the throne of David.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

Hebrews 11:9-10 By faith [Abraham] dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

This last one is interesting. How can the kingdom of God be a physical millennial kingdom if flesh and blood cannot inherit it? This one makes me ponder, because I am currently a pre-millennialist. Although, I might be moving the post-millennial direction...

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

Well, what is it? Are we in the kingdom now, as this verse says or are we just waiting for something?

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

Interesting... Judging, appearing and kingdom all together at the same time (not separated by 1000 years)

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom.

What, not earthly millennial kingdom?

2 Peter 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

There's that pesky word "aionios" which you guys say does not mean eternal. Unfortunately, Thayer's lexicon disagrees with you. Philo also used it 50 times in his writings to mean something without beginning or ending. Plato used it to refer to the immeasurableness of eternity. Josephus also used it to refer to unending time. Since the Bible often uses it in the same way, I think they are in good company.

So, these are interesting passages. As I said, I am still a premil guy, but these might require a little more study. My point is that "the kingdom" did NOT always mean an earthly kingdom to the Jews. It was much broader than that. It had earthly ramifications with the reversal of the curse (see Isaiah 65-66), but even Abraham looked for a heavenly fulfillment.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
In the revelation, the symbolic elements are interpretted for us. For example:
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The woman is a symbol, the literal interpretation of the symbol is a city. Unless there was an interpretation given for the thousand years, there is no reason not to take it literally.

I still agree with you on this one, James, despite my previous listing of verses. The WHOLE book of Revelation was not meant to be taken allegorically, just the parts that are allegory. When he says, "the woman is the great city," we are not supposed to try to find the allegorical meaning of the city, just the woman. So, I'm still with you on the 1,000 years (although tentatively).

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:

[/QB]

You know, I'm getting really tired of dispensational charts...

 

[Hope of Glory]

There will be an earthly seed and a heavenly seed...

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Tonight, I will make a long post and discuss deep on millennial issue with Rev. 20:1-5 about 'a thousand years'.

Myself was premill before for long time. I used to believe 'a thousand years' of Rev. 20:1-5 is a literal exactly length time. But, later I learned that passage is a figurative and symbol with meanings.

Later tonight I will explain on 'a thousand years' and 'thousand' with verse sin the Bible, what these saith.

I want to discuss on millennial. Because, Faust, Whipple, others just bring up on 'millennial exclusion', because they are premill. That why, I want to explain you on verses what these mean. I think they are misunderstanding verses what they are talking about.

Also, no way that, you can guess what Christ actual saying for example - Matt. 6:33 - 'the kingdom of God' is so called, "millennial kingdom". But, Christ doesn't saying it. You just added Christ's word. You have to be careful while you read and intepreting what Christ actual saying.

Dangerous to do guesswork or logical by to intepreting verse, while these are NOT actual saying. If you are not sure what it means, then, DO NOT be guess or logical (make-up) of your own idea of your own interpreting verse. Better leave verse alone. Wait till you will be able to understand verse more lcear, then you shall be able to explain verse correctly.

Later tonight I will discuss more deep on millennial issue with verses. Because I am off from 3rd shift job.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Bro. Ruben]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:

Myself was premill before for long time. I used to believe 'a thousand years' of Rev. 20:1-5 is a literal exactly length time. But, later I learned that passage is a figurative and symbol with meanings.

What other things made you changed your views about the Rapture? Was it simply because (as you said) it's figurative?

Thanks.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:

You know, I'm getting really tired of dispensational charts... [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Ignorant of the chronology given in scripture doesn't make you right.

Jesus said this about his "first Coming".

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,


But now look at what happens when he does return.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And what was the reason Jesus said they would fight,

if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Much of the church are as ignorant about the "literal Kingdom' (MK) as the Jews are of the "Spiritual Kingdom". (Church)

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Ignorant of the chronology given in scripture doesn't make you right.

Touche'!

But assuming a chronology from metaphorical statements doesn't make you right either. At the beginning of the other post where this chart was dealt with in detail, you placed the verse, "A day with the Lord is as a thousand years." Unfortunately, you then interpret that as a mathematical equation (1 day = 1 thousand years).

But the verse does not say, "A day with the Lord IS a thousand years." It says, "A day with the Lord is AS a thousand years." That little word "as" is extremely important. That makes it a simile, which according to the dictionary is "A figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared, often in a phrase introduced by like or as." It does not equate the two, but compares them.

 

[J. Jump]

Actually the Greek word in II Peter 3:8 has three different meanings like as, even as or just as. So two out of the three indicate that it is a matter of fact not a comparison, so the question is which one of the translations is correct.

Personally I believe the Bible indicates via other Scriptures regarding the septenary arrangement of Scripture shows that even as or just as would be the correct rendering of that verse.

Seeing a 1,000 years as one day is what allows the verses that say behold I am coming quickly to make sense, because even though it is 2,000 years for mankind it is just two days for God, which is quick.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
Ignorant of the chronology given in scripture doesn't make you right.

Touche'!

But assuming a chronology from metaphorical statements doesn't make you right either. At the beginning of the other post where this chart was dealt with in detail, you placed the verse, "A day with the Lord is as a thousand years." Unfortunately, you then interpret that as a mathematical equation (1 day = 1 thousand years).

But the verse does not say, "A day with the Lord IS a thousand years." It says, "A day with the Lord is AS a thousand years." That little word "as" is extremely important. That makes it a simile, which according to the dictionary is "A figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared, often in a phrase introduced by like or as." It does not equate the two, but compares them. </font>[/QUOTE]2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,

Did you ever wonder why it's so "important" for us not be be ignorant of "THING ONE THING"???

The sun, literal light of the world, wasn't created until the "FOURTH DAY", want to take a guess at what "DAY" the "Spiritual light" came and started lighting the "world"??

I give you a "clue", Jesus waited until the "FOURTH DAY" before resurrecting "Lazarus", telling Mary/Martha, I am the resurrection,

and how many "DAYS" was Moses passover lamb "CHOSEN" and held back before being "Sacrificed"??

And why did Jesus only spend "TWO DAYS" with the "Gentile Woman" at the well???

Scripture has a "DEEPER" meaning than what you read on the "surface".

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest:

Ro 9:28 because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
The idea of the Millenium has very weak support in one chapter of the Bible in a book that is to be read symbolically rather than literally. I simply can't believe that anyone would twist their entire theology around a concept that is so shakey.

Perhaps you don't understand my point. Yes, the only way we can know the LENGTH of Christ's earthly kingdom is from one chapter of the Bible (though it is stated six times in as many verses, so is certainly not "shakey"). But the REALITY of that kingdom is taught all the way through the Bible, particularly the gospels. As I said, we'd be much better off calling it "the kingdom of God" or the "kingdom" where "Messiah reigns" "on the trone of David."

(BTW, do you think William the Conquorer knew anything whatsoever about the future? Christ did and continues to do so. It's kind of hard to compare a man with God.)

Do you think that's what I was saying? Just as we can refer to William's kingdom without without refering to its length, so Christ could refer to His future kingdom (yes, He knows the future!) without mentioning its length.

 

[Bartholomew]

Hi Calvibaptist! Thanks for telling us your thoughts - I thought I'd share some of mine with you.

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

Isn't Christ's kingdom of the NEXT world?

Hebrews 11:9-10 By faith [Abraham] dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Can not "heavenly" refer to the authority of the country? As with John's baptism from heaven? Or Dan 2:44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom"

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Presumably some new people will be created; or some with flesh and blood will remain and enter. Yet there may well be a distinction between simply "entering" and "inheriting" as well.

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

It seems to me we ARE in the kingdom now; but not fully, in the way that we will be. Christ told how God gave the kingdom to Israel; but because they killed His servants and then His Son He took the kingdom of God and gave it to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof. So we see Israel had the kingdom before Jesus died (Jews living in the land?); yet it was only partial. Jesus continually refered to it as future, for this is when it will come fully. In the same way we are "in heavenly places". Is it significant that here we are TRANSLATED rather than ENTERING?

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

Interesting... Judging, appearing and kingdom all together at the same time (not separated by 1000 years)

Agreed. Note the kingdom is future. The judgement is presumably the judgement seat of Christ.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom.

Again, can not heaven refer to the authority or character of this kingdom?

Thanks for reading this

 

[Me4Him]

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The "kingdom" Jesus presently rules over is a "Spiritual Kingdom", the church.

The "literal Kingdom" is the one promised to the Jews in the OT, and it's the Mill reign.