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Is Much of Modern Arminianism/Non cal Under Finnet theology?

Winman

Active Member
Gill on Romans 5:19:

"that as by Adam's sin all his posterity are made sinners, and so are brought under a sentence of condemnation; in like manner by the obedience of Christ, all his seed are made righteous and come under a sentence of justification of life: the persons made sinners are said to be "many", in opposition to the "one man", by whose disobedience they became so, and because there is an exception of one, even Jesus Christ; and mean all the natural descendants of Adam, who are many, and are so called, to answer to the subjects of justification in the next clause: what they are made sinners by, is "the disobedience of one man, Adam"; and by the first and single disobedience of his, in eating the fruit of the forbidden tree, by which they "were made sinners": the meaning of which is not, that they became sufferers for it, or subject to death on the account of it; the word used will not bear such a sense, but signifies men guilty of sin, and sometimes the worst and chief of sinners; besides, the apostle had expressed that before; add to this, that the sons of Adam could not be sufferers for his sin, or subject to death on account of it, if they were not made sinners by it, or involved in the guilt or it"

Jordan, you are aware that John Gill is a Calvinist aren't you? And not just a moderate Calvinist, some consider him a hyper-Calvinist.

You listen to Gill and you will get seriously messed up on doctrine. He interprets all scripture to agree with Calvinism, and Calvinism MUST believe in Original Sin. Without Original Sin Calvinism would collapse like a house of cards.

Jordan, you have to be consistent when reading Romans 5. Paul is using a form of parallelism, you have to treat both halves of each verse equally.

If Romans 5:19 is teaching that all men are unconditionally made sinners by Adam's one sin, then the other half of the verse MUST teach that all men are unconditionally made righteous by Christ's one obedience. That would be Universalism.

Please pay attention to the word "unconditionally" Jordan, that is of utmost importance to understand Romans 5. If Adam's sin is applied to all men without condition, then so must Christ's righteousness. This is the parallel form of argument Paul is using that you MUST follow to interpret this scripture properly.

In fact, this is the very verse that all Univeralists use as a proof text for their view. And truth be told, if we are unconditionally made sinners by Adam's sin, then they are 100% correct.

67. Paul represented the free gift of life as extending equally with sin. "As, by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Rom. 5:18) This is a very important passage. It teaches us, that the free gift of eternal life shall extend equally with sin. On the one hand we are told, judgment came upon ALL MEN by sin. On the other we find, that "the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life." This free gift is eternal life, (see Rom. 6:23). But, for a further view of the argument of the apostle in this place, see section 68.

68. Paul also says, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." The same MANY that were made sinners, Paul declares "shall be made righteous." This certainly asserts the salvation of all sinners. Parkhurst, in his Greek Lexicon, says, [the Greek words for] the many, i.e. the multitude, or whole bulk of mankind, Rom 5:15, 19, in which text [the Greek words for the many] are plainly equivalent to [the Greek words for] ALL MEN, verses 12, 18". The learned Dr. Macknight is to the same purport. "for as [the Greek word for] THE MANY, in the first part of the verse, does not mean some of mankind only, but all mankind, from first to last, who without exception, are CONSTITUTED SINNERS, so THE MANY, in the latter part of the verse, who are said to be constituted righteous, through the obedience of Christ, mus mean ALL MANKIND, from the beginning to the end of the world, WITHOUT EXCEPTION." See his commentary on the place. The evident sense of the passage is this: For as THE MANY, that, the whole bulk of mankind were made sinners, so shall THE MANY, that is, the whole, the whole bulk of mankind, be made righteous. What can be plainer than this fact? We agree with the authors of the Improved Version, who say, "Nothing can be more obvious than this, that it is the apostle's intention to represent all mankind, without exception, as deriving greater benefit from the mission of Christ, than they suffered injury from the fall of Adam. The universality of the apostle's expression is very remarkable. The same "many" who were made sinners by the disobedience of one, are made righteous by the obedience of the other. If ALL MEN are condemned by the offence of one, the same ALL are justified by the righteousness of the other. These universal terms, so frequently repeated, and so variously diversified, cannot be reconciled to the limitation of the blessings of the Gospel, to the elect alone, or to a part only of the human race." -- Note on Rom. 5:19.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univ3.html

No, we are conditionally made sinners when we sin as Adam sinned, and we are conditionally made righteous when we believe as Jesus believed.

Paul is simply explaining that Jesus is a type of Adam. As Adam brought the judgment of being judged "a sinner" upon us, and the condemnation for that judgment which is death, Jesus brought a judgment of being "righteous" upon us and the gift of eternal life through his faith and obedience in trusting his Father to raise him from the dead.

Romans 5 is not teaching Original Sin, verse 14 proves that;

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:14 cannot be teaching Original Sin for two reasons;

#1 Paul mentions men from Adam to Moses only. If he were teaching Original Sin, then this death would have extended to ALL MEN.

#2 Paul very specifically says these men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude or likeness of Adam's sin. They were not in Adam's loins in the garden eating the forbidden fruit with him as Augustine falsely taught.

So, be careful who you listen to Jordan. There are a lot of Calvinists out there, in fact, there is a bit of Calvinist in your pastor who called me a "Pelagian", that is a term famous among Calvinsts. Very few non-Cals ever use this term. Pay attention.
 
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Jordan Kurecki

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jordan, you are aware that John Gill is a Calvinist aren't you? And not just a moderate Calvinist, some consider him a hyper-Calvinist.

You listen to Gill and you will get seriously messed up on doctrine. He interprets all scripture to agree with Calvinism, and Calvinism MUST believe in Original Sin. Without Original Sin Calvinism would collapse like a house of cards.

Jordan, you have to be consistent when reading Romans 5. Paul is using a form of parallelism, you have to treat both halves of each verse equally.

If Romans 5:19 is teaching that all men are unconditionally made sinners by Adam's one sin, then the other half of the verse MUST teach that all men are unconditionally made righteous by Christ's one obedience. That would be Universalism.

Please pay attention to the word "unconditionally" Jordan, that is of utmost importance to understand Romans 5. If Adam's sin is applied to all men without condition, then so must Christ's righteousness. This is the parallel form of argument Paul is using that you MUST follow to interpret this scripture properly.

In fact, this is the very verse that all Univeralists use as a proof text for their view. And truth be told, if we are unconditionally made sinners by Adam's sin, then they are 100% correct.



http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univ3.html

No, we are conditionally made sinners when we sin as Adam sinned, and we are conditionally made righteous when we believe as Jesus believed.

Paul is simply explaining that Jesus is a type of Adam. As Adam brought the judgment of being judged "a sinner" upon us, and the condemnation for that judgment which is death, Jesus brought a judgment of being "righteous" upon us and the gift of eternal life through his faith and obedience in trusting his Father to raise him from the dead.

Romans 5 is not teaching Original Sin, verse 14 proves that;

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:14 cannot be teaching Original Sin for two reasons;

#1 Paul mentions men from Adam to Moses only. If he were teaching Original Sin, then this death would have extended to ALL MEN.

#2 Paul very specifically says these men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude or likeness of Adam's sin. They were not in Adam's loins in the garden eating the forbidden fruit with him as Augustine falsely taught.

So, be careful who you listen to Jordan. There are a lot of Calvinists out there, in fact, there is a bit of Calvinist in your pastor who called me a "Pelagian", that is a term famous among Calvinsts. Very few non-Cals ever use this term. Pay attention.
No Winman, those who are in Adam are unconditionally made sinners, and those in Christ are unconditionally made righteous in Christ.

a universalist cannot use this verse because not all men are in Christ.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many(all in adam) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many(all in Christ) be made righteous.
 

Winman

Active Member
No Winman, those who are in Adam are unconditionally made sinners, and those in Christ are unconditionally made righteous in Christ.

a universalist cannot use this verse because not all men are in Christ.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many(all in adam) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many(all in Christ) be made righteous.

Jordan, you are quite mixed up. There is no such thing as a person who is unconditionally "in Christ". You must BELIEVE to be placed in Christ.

Believing is not a work Jordan, but it is an absolute condition of salvation. If you do not believe on Jesus, God will not save you.
 

Jordan Kurecki

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jordan, you are quite mixed up. There is no such thing as a person who is unconditionally "in Christ". You must BELIEVE to be placed in Christ.

Believing is not a work Jordan, but it is an absolute condition of salvation. If you do not believe on Jesus, God will not save you.
I never said that.

I said those in Christ are unconditionally made righteous, as in all in Christ are going to made unconditionally righteous, they are made righteous no matter what because they are in Christ. I never said anyone was unconditionally put into Christ, two very big different statements!


Being in Christ has unconditional results, such as eternal life, sonship,etc.

Paul is merely stating that all who are in Adam will unconditionally die, all who are in Adam will die in their sins, while all who are in Christ will be unconditionally alive.

Would you not agree that once a person is in Christ, then they now have unconditional life, or are you one of those who believes one can lose eternal life once they have it?
 
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Winman

Active Member
I never said that.

I said those in Christ are unconditionally made righteous, as in all in Christ are going to made unconditionally righteous, they are made righteous no matter what because they are in Christ. I never said anyone was unconditionally put into Christ, two very big different statements!

But that is the problem with your interpretation Jordan. You believe that Romans 5:19 is teaching that men are born sinners because of Adam, not because of anything they have done, but you agree a man MUST believe to be placed in Christ. That violates Paul's form of parallelism in this chapter. What applies to one side of each verse MUST apply to the other. Look at the words used;

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul is using a form of parallelism here. What he says about the first phrase likewise applies to the second, but to an opposite effect.

If ALL MEN are unconditionally made sinners by Adam, then ALL MEN must unconditionally be made righteous by Jesus. We KNOW this is not true, for the scriptures tell us many men will perish and go to hell.

However, the opposite works perfectly. If ALL MEN are conditionally made sinners when they sin as Adam did, then ALL MEN who conditionally believe as Jesus did will be made righteous. Perfect. Agrees with all scripture 100%.

Think about that for a few minutes Jordan and you will see what I am saying.

Being in Christ has unconditional results, such as eternal life, sonship,etc.

There is nothing unconditional about it, you must BELIEVE to receive eternal life Jordan. Salvation is not unconditional whatsoever.

Paul is merely stating that all who are in Adam will unconditionally die, all who are in Adam will die in their sins, while all who are in Christ will be unconditionally live.

False. We do not unconditionally spiritually die, we die because "all have sinned" in verse 12;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This verse does not say Adam's sin passed on all men, it says DEATH passed on all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. Men die spiritually because they have conditionally sinned.

Augustine used a flawed Latin text (he did not read Greek well) that misinterpreted Romans 5:12 to say, "in whom all sinned" which he ASSUMED meant Adam. This translation was error. Even Greek scholars who agree with Augustine say this Latin text was wrong, and that the Greek teaches that all men die "because that" or "for that all have sinned" as our KJB says. The Greek clearly teaches that all men die for their own personal sin.

This is historical fact Jordan that you can look up online in many places. I suggest you do a little study on this. You will find out I am telling you the absolute truth.

Here is what Dr. J.W. MacGorman, a professor of Greek and the New Testament at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for over 56 years said of Romans 5:12-21

Dr. J.W. MacGorman said:
“No passage in this letter is more difficult to understand than Romans 5:12-21. No passage has suffered a greater distortion at the hands of its interpreters.”

“To these difficulties in the passage itself, translators and interpreters have added their own misunderstandings of Paul's meaning. The following items will provide examples of what is intended by this statement:

1. The Vulgate, a fourth-century Latin translation of the Bible, wrongly translated the last clause of Romans 5:12. Where the Greek text has, "Because all men sinned," the Vulgate rendered, "In whom all sinned." Adam was regarded as the unnamed antecedent of "in whom."

2. Upon the basis of this translation error in the Vulgate, Augustine (a.d. 354-430) developed his doctrine of original sin. He taught that all men were seminally present in the loins of Adam when he sinned. Thus he held that the whole human race sinned in Adam's sin. By virtue of our physical descent from Adam, we inherit his guilt. We are born guilty of original sin, according to Augustine. …

3. In the seventeenth century Johann Cocceius proposed a different theory of original sin. He taught that God entered into a covenant with Adam as the federal head of the human race. If Adam obeyed God, all mankind would receive eternal life; but if he disobeyed, all would be condemned to corruption and death. Since Adam sinned, God imputed his sin to all his descendants. This has been called the Federal Theory of Original Sin or the Theory of Condemnation by Covenant. It has influenced greatly the churches of the Reformed tradition. However, there is not one shred of evidence in the Bible that God ever entered into such a covenant with Adam. The theory was born in Europe, not Eden.

4. Many interpreters of Romans 5:12-21 have tended to ignore both its general and immediate context in the letter. In Romans 1:18 to 3:20 Paul set forth his doctrine of sin. Here he showed how all men, Gentiles and Jews alike, have become guilty, because all men have sinned (3:9, 19, 23). Human guilt derives from human sin; it is not inherited. Men are guilty because they have sinned, not because they were born.”

“No interpretation of Romans 5:12-21 that obscures or refutes the plain teaching of Romans 1:18 to 3:20 can be correct. Is it not interesting that Paul managed to demonstrate the guiltiness of all men in this earlier passage without any reference to Adam?”

http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/pe...nevitably-leading-to-heresy-if-not-worse.html

Note that last statement by Dr. MacGorman. For the first three chapters of Romans, Paul repeatedly proves that all men, Jews and Gentiles are sinners because they have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. Paul does not mention Adam even once in these chapters.

In fact, Paul only mentions Adam twice in the whole book of Romans, in chapter 5 verse 14. In verse 14, Paul says men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned in the similitude of Adam. They did not sin in Adam's loins in the garden as Augustine imagined. Augustine went completely off the tracks in Romans 5.
 
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