salvation produces good works as its by product, not a cause of salvation!
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Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
That's NOT what the Bible teaches (James 2:14-26, Gal. 5-6, 1 Cor. 13:1-13).
ALL of these passages show that faith is not simply a "feeling" but an ACTION.
It's Love in action.
The death of Jesus and his resurrection fully completed the plan of salvation, I am NOT required to do anything else in order to be saved!
That's NOT what the Bible says (Matt. 7:21, Matt. 23:31-46, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Gal. 5:6).
We have to cooperate with the grace gained from the Crucifixion. We don't get to just sit there and ignore it and expect it to apply to us.
It gets applied towards us thru faith!
As long as you don't fall into the trap of thinking that faith is simply "believing" - because it's already been shown to you that even the DEMONS believe in the truths about God (James 2:19).
Faith requires hope and love- and love is an ACTION - not just a "feeling" . . .
Salvation, will produce good works as evidence of that having happened, but not part of it happening!
I'm not sure how many times you have to be show from Scripture that you're wrong - but you're wrong.
Salvation requires our cooperation with God's grace (Matt. 7:21, Matt. 23:31-46, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Gal. 5:6).
Faith is NOT a spectator sport . . .
God saves us first, and Then we get water baptized, take communion etc!
There s NO salvation without Baptism (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38. 2 Pet. 3:21).
The thief on that Cross placed faith into Jesus to save Him, and he did minus getting dunked!
As I have already explained to you - the Thief was covered by Baptism of Desire.
He absolutely WOULD have been baptized if he had the chance - but he was busy being executed.
In His infinite mercy - God makes exceptions.
Baptism of desire - Wikipedia
"Baptism of desire is a teaching of the Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church and Roman Catholic Church explaining that those who desire baptism, but are not baptized with water through the Christian Sacrament because of death, nevertheless receive the fruits of Baptism at the moment of death if their grace of conversion included "divine and catholic faith", an internal act of perfect charity, and perfect contrition by which their soul was cleansed of all sin."
Hog wash!
By your saying "Hogwash!" - you render Christ a liar.
He gave His Church supreme earthly authority - that WHATEVER it bound or loosed on earth would be bound or loosed n Heaven (Matt. 18:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23) and that the Holy spirit would guide it to ALL TRUTH (John 16:12-15).
Which parts of "Whatever" and "ALL Truth" do you not understand??
How does an adult or infant soul guilty of sin achieve "perfect charity" and/or "perfect contrition" by which their soul was cleansed of all sin?
[Act 15:9 ESV] and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
[Eph 5:26 ESV] that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
[2Pe 1:9 ESV] For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
In these verses, do you attribute the act of cleansing to the perfection of charity or contrition in/of the individual?
If so, you are a spiritually needy individual.
How did 8-day-old infants enter a Covenant with God by having their foreskin chopped off?
Answer: They were raised in the faith by their parents, which was part of the Covenant.
The OT Type that was circumcision is now fulfilled by BAPTISM which Paul refers to as "circumcision of the heart" and "circumcision of Christ" (Romans 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe the reality of circumcision/Baptism being a spiritually inward act, not merely an outward sign.
Peter baptized the ENTIRE household of Cornelius (Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14). Paul baptized the ENTIRE households of Stephanas (Acts 16:23-33) and the Philippian Jailer (1 Cor. 1:16).
The Early Church Fathers attributes Infant Baptism as a teaching from the Apostles themselves:
Irenaeus
"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: INFANTS, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
Hippolytus
"BAPTIZE FIRST THE CHILDREN, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The APOSTOLIC Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).
Origen
"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to INFANTS. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).
"THE CHURCH RECEIVED FROM THE APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to INFANTS. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified WITHIN THE EIGHTH DAY AFTER HIS BIRTH. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).
Gregory of Nazianz
"Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the INFANT be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!" (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).
"‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly [I respond], if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated" (ibid., 40:28).
John Chrysostom
"You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even INFANTS, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).
Augustine
"What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).
"The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
Should I be impressed?
I don't care if you are or aren't.
What you SHOULD do is pay attention to what Scripture and the Church have been teaching for thousands of years.
I do pay attention to what scripture teaches; your church, not so much, actually, not at all.
Actually - not so much (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23, 1 Tim. 3:15, Eph. 1:22-23).